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Frelga
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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RoseMorninStar wrote:I'm not sure if this article has been posted here. It came out last year a month or so after this thread started. I did a quick look and didn't see it posted.
Ex-Neo Nazis Explain What's Driving the Alt-Right
Of more practical importance, what made them stop. In the case of the two people interviewed for this article, apparently prison.

Which segues to this point:
River wrote:Arguments work in courts. Violence works on streets. But minds get changed through exposure.
Violence in the streets is not necessary when the legal system works to protect all citizens. Upthread, there was a link to a story of American tourists who punched a Nazi in Germany, and said Nazi was then arrested because Nazi symbols are illegal in Germany. In this case, they shouldn't have punched a Nazi. It was excessive when there was an option to report him to police. When there isn't, that's when things get violent.

Exposure works for casual bigotry, on people who spent their lives in a small community of people who look and sound the same. Then, an encounter with an actual person who looks, sounds, and thinks differently can be eye-opening. We've seen this happen on these very boards. That's why representation in media is important, because exposure doesn't have to be in person.

Exposure is not going to do anything for an entitled asshole, and neither will a reasoned argument.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Túrin Turambar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Túrin Turambar »

The question of what actually stopped Nazism in Germany is an interesting and complex one. Quite obviously, Germans didn’t go from complete approval of Hitler and the Nazi Party on 7 May 1945 to complete rejection of them on 8 May.

Certainly military defeat and the utter devastation Germans suffered over 1944-1945 meant support for the Government had been falling for months before the surrender. That said, Nazism wasn’t completely rejected afterwards, either. The Wikipedia article on de-Nazification refers to some interesting survey results taken from the late 1940s and early 1950s suggesting Hitler and Nazism had minority and dwindling but still robust support for years after the War. It might have been West Germany’s success in the 1950s and 1960s which finally discredited Nazism and reduced it to a fringe.
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Dave_LF
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Dave_LF »

20,000 Illinois Republicans just nominated the former head of the American Nazi Party as their candidate for state Congress.

He'll lose because it's a solid Democratic district, but nevertheless, 20,000 Republicans in a single district said they want to be represented by a literal, self-described Nazi.

Naturally, the GOP claims this is the Democrats' fault (I'm just surprised they didn't blame it on Hilary Clinton).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/d ... story.html
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Frelga
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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Figures
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If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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Dave_LF wrote:20,000 Illinois Republicans just nominated the former head of the American Nazi Party as their candidate for state Congress.
He ran unopposed, with no support from the party, in a district that will never elect a Republican anyway and the Republican Party had chosen to ignore.

In a lopsided district, kooks can and do sweep in and take major party nominations without being noticed until it is too late.

The only question that remains is - when the Republicans create a list of their candidates in that state, will they include him on the list? Probably not.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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After reading the actual article, got to agree with CG on this one, that headline is extremely misleading and clickbaity. No legitimate Republican ran so of course the only Republican on the ticket got a few votes from people who saw the R by his name but didn't know what he actually was. And the Democrats were not blamed for this candidate, but were accused of gerrymandering the district so no legitimate Republicans would be interested in running, a serious allegation worth looking into.
Last edited by yovargas on Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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I read about that guy a couple months ago. The Illinois GOP has previously been able to keep him off the ballot but this year he had all his paperwork in order and they had no recourse.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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And none of that information (all covered in the article I linked to, incidentally) changes the fact that 20,000 Republicans felt that Mr. Nazi was a better choice than a Democrat, a third party candidate, or staying home. In the absolute best case, because they just blindly checked the "R" box. I suppose if one were inclined toward optimism (and I am not, at this juncture), one could argue that in a more competitive election, his Nazism would have been better publicized and might have discouraged, say, half of those 20,000 from voting for him.

As for gerrymandering, I'm surprised a career Republican has the gall to bring that up. No I'm not. That party is utterly beyond either irony or shame.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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I am puzzled as to why a party cannot vet/approve/reject candidates to ensure that the objective of a candidate is true to their party ideals/ideas. It isn't as if it would prevent the person from running for office, just not under the 'banner' of a particular party.
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Frelga
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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I was wondering about that. Can anyone run for any party?
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yovargas
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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If no one is really paying attention, I don't see why not.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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I'm not sure what the laws are. I'm not sure they're even consistent from state to state. The parties themselves are private organizations. They've got no obligation to run candidates or even hold primaries to select a nominee. It seems like they'd have some means of protecting their respective brands.
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Túrin Turambar
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Túrin Turambar »

The parties don’t seem to have much control over who nominates. The Kansas Democratic Party wasn’t able to stop Fred Phelps of the God-hates-everyone Westboro Baptist Church from running in multiple primaries, nor was the Louisiana Republican Party able to keep David Duke off the Republican primary ballot. Phelps didn’t win any primaries (although he got 15% of the vote for Governor), but IIRC Duke did manage to get the nomination.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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One would think the National elections would have an interest in maintaining the integrity *cough* of their 'brand'. Oh.. integrity.. that's the missing element. There seems to be very little of it in politics.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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Dave_LF wrote:And none of that information (all covered in the article I linked to, incidentally) changes the fact that 20,000 Republicans felt that Mr. Nazi was a better choice than a Democrat, a third party candidate, or staying home. In the absolute best case, because they just blindly checked the "R" box. I suppose if one were inclined toward optimism (and I am not, at this juncture), one could argue that in a more competitive election, his Nazism would have been better publicized and might have discouraged, say, half of those 20,000 from voting for him.
It's the dead cat principle, sometimes called the hat rack principle. The way it works is, there are people who would vote for a dead cat as long as it belonged to the right party. There are people who don't bother to know anything about the candidate, just whether a D or R follows the name. Just look at the case of Alvin Greene. Everyone who knew anything about him knew he was a highly defective candidate, and yet he still pulled in 30% of the vote.

Do you suspect that the 20,000 actually knew much about this down-ticket primary candidate?
RoseMorninStar wrote:I am puzzled as to why a party cannot vet/approve/reject candidates to ensure that the objective of a candidate is true to their party ideals/ideas. It isn't as if it would prevent the person from running for office, just not under the 'banner' of a particular party.
RoseMorninStar wrote:One would think the National elections would have an interest in maintaining the integrity *cough* of their 'brand'. Oh.. integrity.. that's the missing element. There seems to be very little of it in politics.
Actually they don't have near as much say in the matter as one might think.

After BCRA was passed, a strict division between national and state parties was instituted. Technically they are completely separate entities, but affiliated with each other. I got in trouble over this as a county party official, when I prepared some membership forms that had both state and national on the same form and was informed that was absolutely not allowed.

The only real power the national party has over the state parties comes in the extreme and unusual circumstance of when the state party splits due to internal feuding, and the national party has to choose which one of the two state parties to recognize. This relates to any funding the state party gets from the government and also the ballot line, which although that is determined by state election officials, they are very happy if the national party makes the decision for them. They know that whatever they decide, the other faction will accuse them of political manipulation, so if they let someone else decide it saves them from trouble. Who will the Democrats of your state blame if the national Democratic Party makes the decision and your state's Secretary of State simply goes along with it?

There is also no vetting of who registers with the party. That is simply included on voter registration forms issued by the state and includes all recognized parties. That can hurt 3rd parties that are always fighting to maintain status, but since the two parties have written the rules to include themselves and exclude everyone else that means anyone of any belief can sign up to register to vote for one of the two parties. A few years ago I registered Democrat to annoy a very statist Democrat I know since by doing so I was "polluting" his party. Moreover, anyone can sign up to run for public office under any party banner, and the only redress the party has to undo that is to run someone against that person. Since this district was completely ignored until it was too late, it was therefore too late to do that redress. Once they have an insider running against the outsider, they can lavish that insider with money, airtime, support, voter information lists, donor information lists, endorsements, etc. Imagine having the governor and a senator come to your city council race to enforce one of the local candidates. Imagine having them tell all the party members across the state that they should donate to that city council candidate. Powerful stuff, but the one thing they can't do is say "that person cannot use our party name" if that person is validly registered to vote for that party.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Impenitent »

Interesting information, C_G.

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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Maria »

CG wrote:It's the dead cat principle...
I like that description.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Dead cat principle. Heh. I wonder if that is Schroedinger's cat? Maybe it's in the ballot box, maybe it's not. :P
C_G wrote:
RoseMorninStar wrote:I am puzzled as to why a party cannot vet/approve/reject candidates to ensure that the objective of a candidate is true to their party ideals/ideas. It isn't as if it would prevent the person from running for office, just not under the 'banner' of a particular party.
RoseMorninStar wrote:One would think the National elections would have an interest in maintaining the integrity *cough* of their 'brand'. Oh.. integrity.. that's the missing element. There seems to be very little of it in politics.
C_G wrote:Actually they don't have near as much say in the matter as one might think.
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain that. I'll have to let that soak in.
C_G wrote:Who will the Democrats of your state blame if the national Democratic Party makes the decision and your state's Secretary of State simply goes along with it?
I'm not sure if this question was intended to be rhetorical/generally speaking or if you were referring to me/my state in particular. I would be happy with a good candidate of any party. I have heard of people running in a race of the opposite party to throw off results. As I've said before, politics is not my forte. I *try* to be informed about the candidates and base my opinion on a variety of merits other than party affiliation. I am sure there are rules in place for a variety of reasons/situations I've not given consideration to.
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

It was a hypothetical, not a rhetorical.

Imagine. At the state convention the Democratic Party leadership splits over some very contentious issue. They wind up into two factions, each claiming to have elected the chair and each endorsing a slate of candidates up to and including House of Representatives. Which ever one gets the matching funds and the ballot line will win a bunch of elections and the other won't even be on the ballot. They turn to the Secretary of State. He happens to be a Republican and says "Aw geez, I don't need this headache. Whichever one I choose, the other faction will accuse me of sabotaging the Democratic Party of my state."

So he tells them to ask the national Democratic Party. They eventually make a choice, and he says "Okay, the Democratic Party chose you, so I'll give you the ballot line and matching funds." When the losing faction tries to accuse him of being a sabotaging Republican he says "I just listened to the Democratic Party, don't blame me, blame them."
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
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Frelga
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Re: Should you punch a Nazi? The limits of tolerance

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Today in Newnan, GA.
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If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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