You may have heard that someone punched "far-right" activist Spencer on the Inauguration Day.


I have quite a bit to say on the subject of punching Nazis, most of it positive, but this blog has already covered the most vital points.

On The Propriety Of Punching Nazis, An FAQ



So. Should you? Would you?

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“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens

I've been practicing swinging from the hip.

Does having a lot of hip give more impact?

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King

I've been seeing this around for a bit and one things unclear to me - has this Spencer guy actually called for violence against some non-whites? I genuinely don't know but it is IMO extremely relevant to the question.

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists

Prim: Yes. That's what they teach in karate. And keep your thumb tucked in.

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When you can do nothing what can you do?

According to this, yes. http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/23/14356 ... -alt-right

However, after 30 seconds of thought, I decided that no, it isn't relevant. People who visibly identify themselves as Nazis are complicit in the violence even if they don't personally participate in it.

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“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens

Well, Nazis are beyond the limits of "tolerance," in my book, but I would like us to find more Quakerly ways to convey that than punching. Especially since violence will play into the Nazis' hands ("see, WE are the victims here!")

Yesterday an account on Twitter tweeted the names (and, when they had them, photos) of the Jewish refugees on the MS St Louis who were turned away from Cuba, the U.S., and Canada in 1939 and eventually died in camps. That was sobering reading.

Lives are at stake. Nazis and their ilk MUST be countered and confronted. I am so discouraged this week!

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“Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.” E. B. White, who must have had vison in mind. There's a reason why we kept putting the extra i in her name in our minds!

But he is not, to my knowledge, an actual Nazi, but a member of the alt-right. Yes, the two groups have a lot in common but to my knowledge, the so-called alt-right doesn't generally support violence. There's a difference between "I don't like Group X" and "I want to hurt Group X".

If I am right about that - which I very much may not be (I don't spend much time reading up on the alt-right.....) - then I cannot condone violence. The only time violence is morally acceptable is to stop other violence.

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists

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Resentment is no excuse for baldface stupidity.
-- Garrison Keillor

I assume the topic question is offered somewhat in jest. It's legal in our country to go around saying horrible things, but it's not legal to go around punching people. So all punching a Nazi is going to accomplish is potentially entangling the puncher in legal difficulties, which could potentially limit his availability to participate in more constructive forms of engagement.

So no, I don't think one should punch a Nazi; but one also shouldn't tolerate a Nazi. So I think the premise underlying the thread title may be flawed. Perhaps it hinges on how we're defining 'tolerate.' I don't think that we do, as a society, 'tolerate' Naziism or other racist ideologies, as evidenced by our laws that forbid discrimination based on race, religion, etc. The Webster 2a definition of 'tolerate' is, 'to allow to be or to be done without prohibition, hindrance, or contradiction.' So we're not tolerating if we determinedly contradict; but determinedly contradicting should not include punching.

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Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.

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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

I assume Frelga, and the others round the internet having this debate, aren't really talking about whether or not it should be legal. That's a government question whereas this is more personal. It's more about whether we should condemn individuals threatening Nazis, or maybe if we should even encourage the punching, legal or otherwise. I am rather firmly on the no side on the latter, but at the same time, if someone goes around expressing appallingly, profoundly despicable views - say, Westboro Church or NAMBLA or indeed Nazis, well, I sure ain't gonna get too upset that they occasionally get beat up.

(I'm not super convinced that being alt-right = being a Nazi. I'm sure there's plenty of overlap but I kinda doubt they're all on board with a full-on Nazi agenda. But I suppose I don't really know so I'll just take people's word for it.)

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I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists

I think these people should be sent back to the margins and shadows where they belong. If that includes causing discomfort by vocal discussions of the ethics and morals of punching those with their views in the face, so be it. Though the more I consider the more I think that going back to simply shunning them would get the point across without the potential for both martyring someone who should never be martyred and for landing in legal trouble.

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When you can do nothing what can you do?

Yov, here's how to recognize when someone is a Nazi. If their agenda leads people to assume that they are Nazis and their reaction is not horrified and convincing disavowal of Nazi ideology - they are a Nazi. Semantics at that point are irrelevant.

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“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens

Should you punch a Nazi (or member of the alt-right)? Aside from the perfectly-valid objections to the idea raised by Cerin and yovargas, it's also a great way of advertising that you can't really challenge them in a debate so you need to resort to violence.

What's there to debate?

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“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens

The entire alt-right platform?

Didn't that get debated in the 30's and 40's?

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When you can do nothing what can you do?

Well, the Democratic Party base can take the line of "this debate is over, let's beat them up" all they like. Will it do them any good? I seriously doubt it.

My problem with violence is that it has never managed to kill an idea.
The Nazi (and pseudo Nazi and Nazi-like) ideology can't be demolished by punching Nazis.
And that's what we should be focusssing on: what can a society do to prevent people from adopting this psychotic attitude towards other human beings?

Posting on phone via Tapatalk

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Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.

No, you are right, it can't. Last time, we had to shoot them, bomb their cities, and split their country.

That job fell to my grandfather and his two brothers, among millions others. One of the brothers did not return. I hope very much that my son will not have to take up the job.



I'm afraid it's too late for that.

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“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens