Trump's America

[N.E. Brigand]

It's being reported that one of Donald Trump's lawyers, Joe diGenova, today said on Newsmax that Chris Krebs, the recently fired head of U.S. cybersecurity, "should be drawn and quartered, taken out at dawn and shot". (So far I'm seeing only the one source for that, but it's been shared by a number of respected journalists.)

It's such a cliche after four years, but: if this had happened under any other president...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Trump Pardons Michael Flynn, Who Pleaded Guilty to Lying about Russia Contact

As Marcy Wheeler writes: yesterday Donald Trump pardoned a turkey, and today Trump pardoned an agent of Turkey.

I'd love to have a court rule someday on what Pres. Ford claimed about former Pres. Nixon (citing dicta from a Supreme Court ruling decades earlier): that by accepting the pardon, Nixon admitted his guilt. But I have no idea how that question would ever come before a court.

I'd also like to know the specifics of today's move. Trump tweeted that Flynn "has been granted a Full Pardon."

For what? For just the crimes he pleaded guilty to? For other crimes he hasn't been charged with? Flynn was never charged with being an undisclosed agent of the Turkish government. He could have been. Can he now be?

And the judge in Flynn's case has yet to rule on a bunch of matters. One of them concerned whether Flynn ought to be charged with perjury for what he said under oath during the extended court proceedings. Can Flynn now be charged with that?

Finally, there is a possible upside: depending on what the pardon covers, Flynn may not be able plead the Fifth if questioned again about what he and Trump did as regards Russia. And he also can't lie about it, because that's a new crime.

We finally have the actual pardon, and it is extremely broad.

Flynn pardon.jpg (90.75 KiB) Viewed 3056 times

It probably does not cover being an undisclosed agent of Turkey. However, I don't know what the statute of limitations for such a charge might be, and it very likely has expired. But your point about him being able to be questioned about what he and Trump did as regards to Russia and not being able to plead the Fifth is a good one and may apply. It will never happen, though.

[Inanna]

Using passive language too. Tch.

[N.E. Brigand]

We finally have the actual pardon, and it is extremely broad.

[...]

It probably does not cover being an undisclosed agent of Turkey. However, I don't know what the statute of limitations for such a charge might be, and it very likely has expired. But your point about him being able to be questioned about what he and Trump did as regards to Russia and not being able to plead the Fifth is a good one and may apply. It will never happen, though.

I think it probably does cover Flynn's Turkish escapades, since it says he's pardoned for offenses that were merely "known to" the Special Counsel.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Good point.

[N.E. Brigand]

Today a federal judge overseeing the FOIA release of material from the Mueller investigation suggested that the federal judge in Michael Flynn's case might find that Flynn's pardon as written as overly broad. I think that if that were to happen, Flynn or the government would appeal and eventually the Supreme Court would rule the pardon was fine. But it's a a surprising thing to hear regardless.

[N.E. Brigand]

Today a federal judge overseeing the FOIA release of material from the Mueller investigation suggested that the federal judge in Michael Flynn's case might find that Flynn's pardon as written as overly broad. I think that if that were to happen, Flynn or the government would appeal and eventually the Supreme Court would rule the pardon was fine. But it's a a surprising thing to hear regardless.

Elizabeth de la Vega, a former federal prosecutor whose career started, I believe, as a staffer in the Watergate special prosecutor's office, points out some serious problems if Flynn's pardon is allowed to stand as written. Specifically she points out that Flynn is now free to claim both that he was and wasn't pardoned for particular offenses. (He would claim he wasn't pardoned if called to testify about some matter he doesn't want to talk about.) The vagueness of the pardon is a way for Trump to prevent the truth from coming to light.

It's a Heisenberg pardon.

Here's how she puts it (abbreviations expanded and emphasis added):

"We lose our democracy when we're not looking. But [also] sometimes when we are. No case upholds the validity of a pardon for: (1) crimes the President doesn't list; (2) doesn't describe; and (3) doesn't know about; and that are (4) based on conduct he's unaware of; and (5) that maybe occurred at times unknown.

Neither the Nixon nor the Iran-Contra pardons create legal precedents. That they weren't challenged by subsequent prosecution does not create a legal precedent. We are fools if we fail to critically analyze Trump's pardons, both with regard to Flynn and others that are surely in the offing.

Someone should ask Trump what offenses he's pardoning with regard to Flynn. What offenses, e.g., does he think were in 'the jurisdiction of the Special Counsel?' What offenses with regard to Flynn does he think were under investigation by the grand jury? (How would he know?) I'd love to hear what he says.

What offenses does Flynn think he's been pardoned for? For some purposes, say, an indictment within the broad pardon language, he'll say, 'Everything.' For other purposes, say, testimony before Congress, he'll assert the Fifth as to any matter not explicitly detailed in the pardon.

Since no one can say with certainty what offenses Flynn has been pardoned for (other than the specific offenses detailed in the pardon), it would be impossible to successfully oppose his assertion of the Fifth privilege as to many matters. It's a pardon of everything and nothing.

... The issue is not what the actual scope is or isn't; the issue is that the pardon language is so broad and ambiguous that there is no practical way for a court to make the determination."

- - - - - - - - - - -
Edited to add: I now have read specifically what Judge Reggie Walton said about the decisions that Judge Emmett Sullivan has to make.

Walton suggests that the Flynn pardon may have been written so broadly that it "could be construed, I think, as extending protections against criminal prosecutions after the date the pardon was issued."

What does he mean? He means that the document Trump signed says that Flynn is pardoned for "any and all possible offenses arising out of facts and circumstances known to, identified by, or in any manner related to the investigation of the Special Counsel."

So if Flynn commits a crime today, but it's based on "facts and circumstances known to" Mueller's office, Flynn gets away with it! Even though Flynn commits the crime after Trump pardoned him.

Here's a hypothetical to make it more clear: Flynn plotted with several other people to kidnap a Turkish cleric. Mueller knows that. I think it was never charged because, as far as we know, the plotting never got too serious. As far as we know. But supposing one of Flynn's co-conspirators now decides to come clean and confess that the plotting got a lot further along than we knew. And Flynn decides to bribe that person to shut up. That's a new crime. But it *arises* out of facts known to Mueller. And thus it's already been pardoned by Trump, before it ever happened!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here's what the pardon bribe case is apparently about. Much ado about not much, as I previously suggested

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bribery-fo ... 1607131323

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Judge Sullivan granted numerous requests to file friend-of-the-court briefs in the wake of Trump granting a pardon to former national security adviser Michael Flynn.

[elengil]

friend-of-the-court briefs

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Amicus curiae in Latin.

I should mention that all of these requests were made in September or October, long before Trump pardoned Flynn. The fact that Sullivan granted the requests now suggests that he specifically interested in these groups' opinions about the impact of the pardon.

[elengil]

Amicus curiae in Latin.

Yeah, that wasn't as helpful as you think. lol

I have no idea what a 'friend of the court brief' is. Can you give a brief (heh) explanation?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry. It was not as clear in Tapatalk that you were confused. It came across as just a sad looking face, not a questioning one as I see in the browser.

Friend of the court or Amicus briefs are briefs submitted on behalf of people or groups who are not parties to an action (be it civil or criminal) but have an interest in the action in some way. Some of the groups included in the list that he granted are former prosecutors, representatives of the media, former national security officials, the Chairman and other members of the House Judiciary Committee, former Watergate prosecutors, and others that I do not immediately recognize. Most if not all of them had undoubtedly wanted to be heard to express the opinion that the judge should not agree to the Trump/Barr Justice Department's request to dismiss the case. Whether they will still want to express an opinion now that the situation has changed remains to be seen. I'm sure that some of them will.

I hope that helps a little.

[elengil]

Sorry. It was not as clear in Tapatalk that you were confused. It came across as just a sad looking face, not a questioning one as I see in the browser.

LOL well that explains it!

And yes, thank you for the description <- that's a smile.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And ... now Jenna Ellis has reportedly tested positive for Covid-19 and is feared to have spread it to the White House at an indoor maskless Christmas party they had on Friday (I'm going to repeat that, "indoor maskless Christmas party).

Scoop: West Wing fears COVID spread after Trump lawyer Jenna Ellis attends WH party

[River]

Well, that'll be more vaccine doses for the rest of us.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'll put both of these here, even though they are very different stories.

First, Judge formally dismisses Michael Flynn case after Trump pardon

Judge Emmet Sullivan of the DC District Court on Tuesday dismissed Michael Flynn's criminal case as moot, following Flynn's pardon by President Donald Trump, ending a tortured three-year-long proceeding.

In his 43-page opinion, Sullivan critiqued Trump's pardon of Flynn, however, calling it "extraordinarily broad." He noted that the pardon does not make Flynn innocent. Flynn had twice pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI in early 2017. "[A] pardon does not necessarily render 'innocent' a defendant of any alleged violation of the law," Sullivan wrote. "Indeed, the Supreme Court has recognized that the acceptance of a pardon implies a 'confession' of guilt."

And, as an apparent last word on the case, Sullivan criticized the Justice Department's reasoning to want to dismiss Flynn's case, calling it a pretext and not in line with legal standards.

And, perhaps more juicy, Kellyanne Conway Has Reportedly Scored Multimillion Dollar Advance for Trump Tell-All

Kellyanne Conway, a former senior adviser to President Donald Trump, has a multimillion-dollar book deal for a tell-all about her time in the Trump administration, according to a Daily Mail report.

“Members of Donald Trump’s inner circle are ‘quaking in their boots’ after learning Kellyanne Conway sealed a multi-million dollar deal to write a blockbuster memoir about her time in the White House,” the Daily Mail story said.

Conway’s insider take will be the most “unvarnished” and “eye-popping” account of the Trump administration to date, according to an unnamed insider source cited in the story. Conway may net even more from movie rights, according to the source.

The book is expected to address the well-publicized political divide between Conway and her husband, George Conway, who co-founded the anti-Trump organization The Lincoln Project. Conway’s 16-year-old daughter Claudia has also been a vocal Trump critic. Conway left her job as senior adviser to Trump shortly before the Republican National Convention in August, citing a desire to spend more time with her family

[Túrin Turambar]

Completely O/T, but four years ago, during the primaries, I had a bizarre surreal dream set in an alternative universe where the presidential nomination was decided in a series of fights between giant battle robots, and I was employed by Donald Trump to help him build the giant mecha he would ride in his climactic duel against Ted Cruz.

With the experience of the intervening years, I can say with confidence that working in the Trump White House, on battle robot duties or otherwise, wouldn't be much fun. Still, I'm wondering if I'd be willing to take the hit to my dignity to stand up and repeat whatever line the Administration has taken for a year or so in exchange for a book deal and enough money to retire. I'm not sure if it would be.

[N.E. Brigand]

Here's what the pardon bribe case is apparently about. Much ado about not much, as I previously suggested
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bribery-fo ... 1607131323

When I saw that news, I meant to post here to ask how you correctly knew in advance that it would amount to relatively little!

(One thing that strikes me about the case is how there seems to be a class of high-powered Washington lawyers who are happy to work for both parties and to behave in ethically questionable ways. (1) Greg Craig was Obama's White House counsel but went on to work with Paul Manafort and Ukraine's corrupt president Viktor Yanukovych and thus got caught up in the Mueller investigation for failing to register as a foreign agent -- although he was acquitted, perhaps in part because Manafort had only pretended to flip and didn't testify at Craig's trial. (2) Abbe Lowell was the House Democrats' chief counsel during the Bill Clinton impeachment, and it was he who advised House Democrats that Clinton's actions didn't rise to the level of an impeachable offense; for the past few years he's represented Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump and also some sketchy but very rich donors and in both cases appears to at least have edged very close to crossing the line: so much so in this latest case that he was being investigated.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm smart.

Or, alternatively, even a broken clock is right twice a day.