Trump's America

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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

I hope people won't play into Trump's hand by getting violent at any border-related protests.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

yovargas wrote:
The “mainstream” social media networks claim to believe in free speech, but they do not. Gab actually does, and that is why people find it so shocking.
I am a bit disappointed to have to say this on this board but, private entities such as Facebook, twitter, or Gab choosing not to allow the spread of bigoted propaganda on their own platforms is not an attack on free speech. I fully support the rights of people like this to say they're awful, hateful ideas, but they cannot expect that the right to say them using privately owned tools created by private individuals. Let them find their own tools and their own resources to spread their filth.
I agree yov. The right of Freedom of speech does not require that anyone is obligated to listen to what any one has to say nor is anyone required to promote it, disseminate it, or host it in media of any form.
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

RoseMorninStar wrote:
yovargas wrote:
The “mainstream” social media networks claim to believe in free speech, but they do not. Gab actually does, and that is why people find it so shocking.
I am a bit disappointed to have to say this on this board but, private entities such as Facebook, twitter, or Gab choosing not to allow the spread of bigoted propaganda on their own platforms is not an attack on free speech. I fully support the rights of people like this to say they're awful, hateful ideas, but they cannot expect that the right to say them using privately owned tools created by private individuals. Let them find their own tools and their own resources to spread their filth.
I agree yov. The right of Freedom of speech does not require that anyone is obligated to listen to what any one has to say nor is anyone required to promote it, disseminate it, or host it in media of any form.
I'm just quoting this because I've said the same thing and feel like it can't be over-emphasized: social media platforms are private entities, as are the companies that host them on their servers. They have no legal obligations to their customers beyond those of any other private entity. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences for your speech. As my dad puts it sometimes, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical or moral.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

River: Amen.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I was not surprised to learn that NBC had decided to refuse to run the Trump campaign's blatantly racist ad featuring a Mexican illegal immigrant who killed a police officer after returning to the country after being deported and blaming Democrats (even though the man was actually deported and returned to the country and committed the murder during the Bush administration), or that CNN refused to run the ad from the get-go. What did surprise me was that Fox News has also decided to stop running the ad.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/media/nb ... index.html

When you are too racist even for Fox News, you know you have reached a pretty low level.
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

I'd say when anyone's refusing to take money to run your ads you're in some pretty deep excrement. This is how private media outlets make their money, after all.
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Sunsilver »

When you are too racist even for Fox News, you know you have reached a pretty low level.
Yup, that's a bit of a jaw-dropper... :shock:
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Hannity & Limbaugh join Trump on the campaign trail. Is that ethical? Oh... never mind. Silly me. They are not journalists of course, they only pretend to be journalists. So many pretenders.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

So, tomorrow is the big day. I hope all U.S. citizens here have voted or will vote tomorrow. I've been reading "what to watch for" articles and trying to keep my cool. My husband comes home from work at 3 and doesn't have to be in on Wednesday until 11.

I've read several warnings that some key races are so close that we might not get results until Thursday or even later—for example, the Georgia governor's race, which goes to a December two-way runoff if no candidate gets 50%, which may well happen as there are three candidates and the Democrat and Republican are in a statistical dead heat.

I just want to see Trump lose some of the levers of power, to maybe lose this feeling I've had for almost two years that we're all on a bus being driven toward a cliff by a sociopath.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

My predictions are that the Democrats take back the House, but only by a few seats and are riven by division. In the Senate the Republicans gain one seat. The Democrats also make significant gains in Governors and state legislatures.

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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

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And now we hold our breath and try not to go into trauma.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

Yes. :(

My predictions are that Democrats do better than the last-minute predictions and take the House fairly comfortably, win one or two more governorships than predicted, make some progress at the state legislature level, but come out even in the Senate (no net change; win some, lose some).

The House would be a significant hand on the brakes. And in 2020 the Republican Senate map is much worse than the Democrats'—the flip side of this year—and there will be a presidential battle at the top of the ticket. I don't think we will all be significantly happier with Trump in two years, if he is still in office. (I don't at all think that he'll be impeached, but he may be pressured to quit by his own party, whose eyes will be fixed on 2020; failing that, he may simply get bored and wander off to play more golf, especially if he's no longer getting the level of adulation he seems to require.)

My further prediction is that Democrats will nominate a weak presidential candidate in 2020. It seems to be their way when the Republicans are especially vulnerable and victory could otherwise be hoped for.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Frelga
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

I envy your optimism.

“Granny Weatherwax didn’t hold with looking at the future, but now she could feel the future looking at her. She didn’t like its expression at all.”
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If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

...the level of adulation he SEEMS to require? Is there any doubt? Good lord, he can't go long with out a rally of devoted followers willing to blindly cheer on the same tired rhetoric, bully chants, and fear-mongering. If he had new ideas or something worth listening to perhaps it would be understandable, but each rally is a hashed over version of all the same spew that came before. These are not fire-side chats meant for the entire nation, they are intended to divide and conquer and punish those who are not devoted to his narcissistic-ally entitled adulation.

Unfortunately, I echo Frelga's trepidation. Propaganda and fear is a powerful tool and many believe 'it can happen here', but this is where we find ourselves. That said, one should not give up on hope.
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Sunsilver »

I saw something yesterday that gave me some hope. Someone had interviewed around 10 different celebrities (musicians and actors) about what they felt was important in the upcoming election.

Most of them didn't reveal exactly who they were voting for, and just talked about the issues, BUT when they mentioned the issues, it was very obvious that ALL of them were voting Democrat! Many mentioned climate change, and health care, and a few mentioned separating immigrant families from their children.
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

Sunny, it's long been a Republican trope that artists, musicians, and "Hollywood types" are inveterate Democrats, and they're largely right.

I do feel it's best to have hope. Despair is contagious and discourages other people from action such as voting. The list of good outcomes I'm hoping for is a modest one. If things turn out that way, we will be somewhat safer from our president's caprices than we are right now. If lightning strikes and we take the Senate, we will be much safer, but I'm not expecting that at all.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

There certainly is good reason to be cautiously optimistic. FiveThirtyEight's "classic" forecast gives the Democrats an 87.8% chance of taking back the House. In comparison they gave Clinton a 71% chance of winning in 2016, so the GOP keeping the House would be a significantly larger upset than Trump's win.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

I'm really worried/expecting all the recent "omg the caravan is coming to destroy America!!!!!!!" fear-mongering to work. I'm fully expecting to be very disappointed tomorrow.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

The news media (other than Fox) are reporting that story much more critically than they did similar stories when Trump was first elected. I don’t think it will do much more than fire up his base, which is not a majority in this country.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

While I would certainly not advocate for despair, I caution against optimism regarding election results. It will be a blow if you get your hopes up and results are bad.
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