Trump's America

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Faramond
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Faramond »

Why not just start a Trump thread in Bag End? Or would that be too lawless?
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Dave_LF
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Dave_LF »

So is this writer trying to trigger impeachment/25, or to calm the rumblings that had better already be going on on that front over everything else?
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

Dave_LF wrote:So is this writer trying to trigger impeachment/25, or to calm the rumblings that had better already be going on on that front over everything else?
My guess - get a book deal. Nate Silver speculated that it is someone who is hoping to reenter private sector after they leave the WH and this is an attempt to repair their reputation.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

My first reaction to reading that is that, I don't know what the typical journalistic standards are for this kind of thing, but it strikes me as a fairly irresponsible for the Times to publish something like that without a name.
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

Faramond wrote: I rather think the author wants to see the Trump administration ended sooner rather than later, if he had his way. If I had to guess, by replacing him on the 2020 ticket.
So you think it was Pence? I've seen speculation it was Kelly or Mattis. Me, I think it was probably someone a rung lower than that on the food chain. Close enough to see and hear the gory details but not one of the central players.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I don't think it is Pence, Kelly or Mattis. I agree with River that it is likely to be someone further down the food chain, someone that shares conservative goals, but is freaked out at Trump's unstable nature and feeling the need to do something about it. As for the ethics of the Times printing it anonymously, I don't see what choice they had. They could not not print, nor could they use the person's name without their permission, given the obvious harm they would suffer.

I think it could be Kellyanne Conway. Between her husbands constant anti-Trump tweets and the incredible way that Trump threw her under the bus in the phone call with Bob Woodward, I think she has the motivation. But more likely it is someone lower in the food chain than that.

To me there are two separate issues here. Regarding the question of policy, I strongly disagree with the things that the anonymous writer considers "wins" but I understand that the way to change those things is to work to elect representatives who will pursue different policy goals. I try not to automatically subscribe negative motivations to people who have different beliefs that I have regarding what good policy should be, even when I fear the results of policies I disagree with. But the other issue is the question of someone in the ultimate position of power who is too unstable/immoral to exercise that power. The fact that someone who largely agrees with the policy goals of that person chose to take the action they did, even anonymously, because they were afraid of what could happen is, or could be, a watershed event, in my opinion.

Regarding the question of making this thread private, that question came up a couple of months ago. It was decided then that we would stick with keeping all discussion forums public.
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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

If the person was not willing to say these things openly and own them, then the paper should not have printed them, imo. It seems to me there is something wrong about publicly criticizing/accusing someone while keeping one's identity hidden. This seems highly questionable and ill-considered to me.
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

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Yeah, gotta agree with Cerin on this one. Publishing that without a name is more likely to do harm than good, IMO.
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

McGahn? Dan Coats? I think it sounds like something Pence would write but why would he do so, especially now? A conglomerate voice? Someone one step down from a top position?

I would think it's someone who is Republican & is full on-board with deregulation, environmental roll-backs, tax cuts, anti-immigration, etc..
This is not the way an 'adult in the room' would handle the situation. This is a soft coup. This is a cover-up. This is ignoring the elephant in the room to push a particular agenda/ideology at the expense of a healthy, functioning democracy. This was intended to reassure the nation that the governing party in place is 'working'... this is not what successful governing looks like.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

If it were Pence, and if Trump is eventually removed from office and this is considered as contributing to that, Pence might end up being impeached himself as well. Leading to President Pelosi?

Which is why I'm pretty sure he didn't write that editorial.
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Dave_LF
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Dave_LF »

If true, the situation is an emergency and normal rules don't apply, IMO. And I wish the talking heads would focus more on that aspect and less on the relatively unimportant question of who.
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River
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Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

yovargas wrote:Yeah, gotta agree with Cerin on this one. Publishing that without a name is more likely to do harm than good, IMO.
Maybe whoever it is is trying to send Trump even more off the rails?

This person's identity is going to come out, one way or another.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

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My heart is forever in the Shire.
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

It's not a constitutional crisis. We don't know who this person is, what they do, their motivation, how truthful their statements are, how widespread these feelings might be within the administration, nothing. The whole thing is stupid and reckless. I wouldn't be surprised if everything they said turns out to be true but saying like this is garbage.
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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

yovargas wrote:It's not a constitutional crisis. We don't know who this person is, what they do, their motivation, how truthful their statements are, how widespread these feelings might be within the administration, nothing. The whole thing is stupid and reckless. I wouldn't be surprised if everything they said turns out to be true but saying like this is garbage.
That was a link using the title from an article in The Atlantic.
'If the president’s closest advisers believe that he is morally and intellectually unfit for his high office, they have a duty to do their utmost to remove him from it, by the lawful means at hand.'
...
'Your service in government is valuable. Thank you for it. But it is not so indispensable that it can compensate for the continuing tenure of a president you believe to be amoral, untruthful, irrational, antidemocratic, unpatriotic, and dangerous. Previous generations of Americans have sacrificed fortunes, health, and lives to serve the country. You are asked only to tell the truth aloud and with your name attached.'
I agree.
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Primula Baggins
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

The problem is, Trump is useful—not very bright, easily manipulated by pressing his very obvious buttons, and possessed of millions of loyal followers. if he's removed from office, Pence will be a lot harder to control, and furthermore he will probably come in for the wrath of Trump's followers.

For those around Trump who are using him to accomplish their private goals, the current situation is just fine.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Cerin
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Cerin »

As I've thought about this today, I'm in agreement with the Atlantic. The President was elected (through a corrupt system, yes, and is the perfect embodiment of that system, imo, but is it the system we use, or isn't it?) Anonymous wasn't elected (unless Pence). Anonymous has no constitutional authority to advance his own goals within the White House. Anonymous admits he has taken it upon himself to subvert the workings of the duly elected government. I agree that s/he will be found out, and if this isn't treason, what is? Will s/he be arrested when her/his identity is known? At that point, s/he would have to try and prove that what s/he wrote wasn't true.

Did the Times even think this through, or were they so eager to land the punch that they didn't realize what they were abetting? The fact that Anonymous put her/himself in this position paints a very frightening picture about the sense of entitlement establishment politicians must have. It's really breathtaking when you think about it.

If this is a hoax of some sort, it was a very bad idea, imo.

edit

Or perhaps it's an elaborate plot by the Pres. to bring down the NYT.
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Slavex
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Slavex »

wait, what? A corrupt system? how is the system corrupt?
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yovargas
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Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

Doing things the President doesn't like is not treason. He's not a king. His wishes aren't law.
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Dave_LF
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Re: Trump's America

Post by Dave_LF »

The more I think about this, the harder it is to come up with a scenario where this editorial was in the author's best interest, regardless of whether he's on the level or being tricksy.
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