Trump's America

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
Post Reply
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45926
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Frelga wrote:Oops, no, I didn't. It looks fine in Tapatalk. Want me to edit it out?
I had a feeling that was the case. I took the liberty of editing the size, and I'll do the one in the other thread too.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 22423
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Re: Trump's America

Post by Frelga »

Thanks! I'll be more careful in the future.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.

Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 45926
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: Trump's America

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It's hard to tell because Tapatalk automatically resizes things for itself, but not for the messageboard in general.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

Good grief.

1. Every country spies on other countries. Even allies. There are British spies in the US. There are US spies in Britain.
2. Every country does try to influence elections in other countries that matter to the country. The US does it to other countries, other countries do it to the US.

This is not a statement of judgement or approval, it is a statement of fact.

As for the specific Russian involvement in the most recent election...

Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz conspired to rig the primary election to exclude Bernie Sanders. Wikileaks posted the emails that showed they cheated, causing enough Bernie voters to sit out the election. Russia maybe gave the emails to Wikileaks. So Russia meddled with the election by revealing that Clinton meddled with the election.

If only we had a free press that would reveal these matters for us. Instead Assange is about to be ejected from the Ecuadorian embassy, arrested by the UK, and extradited to the US where he'll never be heard from again. If he's lucky he'll only rot in a dark cell for the rest of his natural life. If he's unlucky the US will use "enhanced interrogation" on him.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

None of which is relevant to the fact that Russia meddled in our elections (for some reason) and many of our elected officials don't seem to care (for some reason). Any reasonable person would be very concerned as to what those reasons might be.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12731
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

yovargas wrote:None of which is relevant to the fact that Russia meddled in our elections (for some reason) and many of our elected officials don't seem to care (for some reason). Any reasonable person would be very concerned as to what those reasons might be.
Agreed.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

They meddled by telling us what Hillary was doing, which means they meddled by being honest. How awful, telling the truth about Hillary. Why anyone who wants to tell the truth about Hillary usually commits suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head.

This is the way the world works. They have an interest in who wins our elections, just like we have an interest in who wins their elections. They meddle, we meddle. That's what happens when you have too much government.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
User avatar
Primula Baggins
Living in hope
Posts: 40005
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Contact:

Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

I don’t think I want to acknowledge that by responding.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
User avatar
River
bioalchemist
Posts: 13427
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:08 am
Location: the dry land

Re: Trump's America

Post by River »

Yeah so the FSB's active measures were way more extensive than the DNC hack. But whatever gets you through the night, I guess.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12731
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

Russia is having a say in our military matters now? Funny that Putin/Russia knows what's going on but our top security officials do not. I suppose that's part of the new 'normal'? I can just hear the uproar had some of this outrageous garbage have taken place during the Obama administration.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:They meddled by telling us what Hillary was doing, which means they meddled by being honest. How awful, telling the truth about Hillary. Why anyone who wants to tell the truth about Hillary usually commits suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head.

This is the way the world works. They have an interest in who wins our elections, just like we have an interest in who wins their elections. They meddle, we meddle. That's what happens when you have too much government.
None of which is relevant to the fact that Russia meddled in our elections (for some reason) and many of our elected officials don't seem to care (for some reason). Any reasonable person would be very concerned as to what those reasons might be.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
User avatar
Sunsilver
Posts: 8821
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am
Location: In my rose garden
Contact:

Re: Trump's America

Post by Sunsilver »

I happen to be someone who is badly affected by pollution levels, and suffer severe eye irritation and cough a lot when pollution is only at moderate levels. So, I am not at all happy that Trump has appointed the fox to guard the hen house:
:x :x

Yeah, I know, this is probably old news, but I just became aware of the extent of it today when I decided to research this guy after seeing the video where he gets grilled by a Dem. senator.

https://www.edf.org/media/industry-lawy ... -radiation

Here's the video, for those of you who may not have seen it yet>

Last edited by Sunsilver on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
User avatar
Inanna
Meetu's little sister
Posts: 17680
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:03 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Inanna »

It's not the meddling, that's the problem. As C_G said, happens all the effing time. It's the probable *collusion* and how that collusion could affect the decision-making of a head of the country's government. Do heads of govt have back-door deals with other countries - yes, of course. That does not make it okay.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
User avatar
RoseMorninStar
Posts: 12731
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:07 am
Location: North Shire

Re: Trump's America

Post by RoseMorninStar »

I heard an analogy that I found fitting (to the Trump/Putin alliance). To paraphrase: A prison guard might have (had) a working relationship/acquaintance with Jeffrey Dahmer. It would be creepy and concerning if he called Jeffrey Dahmer a friend*. It would be outrageous and extremely dangerous if the guard believed Jeffrey Dahmer over the evidence, the police department, and judicial system. If that prison guard had the power to act on Jeffrey Dahmers requests/wishes, the welfare of the public be damned, it would be horrific.

Sunsilver, I have been extremely concerned about the changes made regarding (or disregarding) our environment. It's reckless, short-sighted, and foolish.

*Edited to add: And the guard insisted that Dahmer was a good person and friend as well.
My heart is forever in the Shire.
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

yovargas wrote:
Cenedril_Gildinaur wrote:They meddled by telling us what Hillary was doing, which means they meddled by being honest. How awful, telling the truth about Hillary. Why anyone who wants to tell the truth about Hillary usually commits suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head.

This is the way the world works. They have an interest in who wins our elections, just like we have an interest in who wins their elections. They meddle, we meddle. That's what happens when you have too much government.
None of which is relevant to the fact that Russia meddled in our elections (for some reason) and many of our elected officials don't seem to care (for some reason). Any reasonable person would be very concerned as to what those reasons might be.
It is relevant, because people are pretending that what happened was somehow a unique event. If you want to find something special, you need to look for collusion. There are people searching for evidence of that with the Trump campaign and Trump administration.

And that assumes there was anything above and beyond the usual amount of meddling, such as telling the truth about Hillary Clinton rigging the election and then forgetting to shoot themselves in the back of the head after doing so.

How is telling the truth in any way something horrible? Assuming they did it in the first place that is. It is true that Assange had a direct hand in telling the truth, and has been wanted by the US ever since. He's soon going to be expelled from the Ecuadorian embassy, which mean he will be arrested by the UK government and extradited to the US. If he's lucky he'll only be placed in a forgotten isolated cell. If he's not lucky he'll have "enhanced interrogation" until he "confesses" that the Russians helped him.

It is true that the Russian government had candidates they preferred. They preferred Bernie Sanders, and Jill Stein, and Donald Trump. It is almost as if they considered having a major hawk who believes settling problems with bombs is a bad thing to elect.

People reacting so negatively to my post are operating on one out of two positions.
1. Nobody should ever meddle. These people show an insufficient amount of outrage over other acts of meddling though.
2. The US is the unique and indispensable nation that is allowed to meddle even though others aren't.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

Gotcha. So you are okay with foreign agents interfering in our elections and you are okay with our elected officials turning a blind eye to it. Understood.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

Neither. I'm just recognizing that it happens, has happened, as as long as we give way too much power to the government, will always continue to happen. To eliminate the symptom (foreign interference) you must treat the cause.

What needs to be shown if you want ire is collusion, not interference.

And that assumes the Russians intervened in the first place. And that assumes you think telling the truth is meddling. And that assumes you think Assange got the information from the Russians instead of a DNC insider who later "committed suicide".

So, are you upset at Russian meddling because you oppose meddling in general, or because you think the US is a special nation?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
User avatar
Primula Baggins
Living in hope
Posts: 40005
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Contact:

Re: Trump's America

Post by Primula Baggins »

You are so far behind the news, there’s no point.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
User avatar
Cenedril_Gildinaur
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Re: Trump's America

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

I do know the news about the show indictments of the Russian citizens.

Perhaps we should ask to see their long form birth certificates, just to prove they are the nationality they claim to be, because after all this is the same level of "logic". "Russiagate" is the new "birther".
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Trump's America

Post by yovargas »

Huh. Weird. I kinda thought you were generally more reasonable than that. Oh well.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
Post Reply