Gun Control Debate

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RoseMorninStar
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by RoseMorninStar »

An article from The Atlantic written by the radiologist who was working in the trauma center that handled the victims of the Parkville shooting. Well worth the read.


What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns
They weren’t the first victims of a mass shooting the Florida radiologist had seen—but their wounds were radically different.
Lisa Marie Pane / AP Heather Sher (radiologist)

As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out-of-the-ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low velocity handgun injuries as those I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.

I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

One of my ER colleagues was waiting nervously for his own children outside the school. While the shooting was still in progress, the first responders were gathering up victims whenever they could and carrying them outside the building. Even as a physician trained in trauma situations, though, there was nothing he could do at the scene to help to save the victims who had been shot with an AR-15. Most of them died on the spot, with no fighting chance at life.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients. It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe. Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?

But in the aftermath of this shooting, in the face of specific questioning, our government leaders did not want to discuss gun control even when asked directly about these issues. Florida Senator Marco Rubio warned not to “jump to conclusions that there’s some law we could have passed that could have prevented it.” A reporter asked House Speaker Paul Ryan about gun control, and he replied, “As you know, mental health is often a big problem underlying these tragedies.” And on Tuesday, Florida’s state legislature voted against considering a ban on AR-15-type rifles, 71 to 36.

If politicians want to back comprehensive mental-health reform, I am all for it. As a medical doctor, I’ve witnessed firsthand the toll that mental-health issues take on families and the individuals themselves who have no access to satisfactory long-term mental-health care. But the president and Congress should not use this issue as an excuse to deliberately overlook the fact that the use of AR-15 rifles is the common denominator in many mass shootings.

A medical professor taught me about the dangers of drawing incorrect conclusions from data with the example of gum chewing, smokers, and lung cancer. He said smokers may be more likely to chew gum to cover bad breath, but that one cannot look at the data and decide that gum chewing causes lung cancer. It is the same type of erroneous logic that focuses on mental health after mass shootings, when banning the sale of semi-automatic rifles would be a far more effective means of preventing them.

Banning the AR-15 should not be a partisan issue. While there may be no consensus on many questions of gun control, there seems to be broad support for removing high-velocity, lethal weaponry and high-capacity magazines from the market, which would drastically reduce the incidence of mass murders. Every constitutionally guaranteed right that we are blessed to enjoy comes with responsibilities. Even our right to free speech is not limitless. Second Amendment gun rights must respect the same boundaries.

The CDC is the appropriate agency to review the potential impact of banning AR-15 style rifles and high-capacity magazines on the incidence of mass shootings. The agency was effectively barred from studying gun violence as a public-health issue in 1996 by a statutory provision known as the Dickey amendment. This provision needs to be repealed so that the CDC can study this issue and make sensible gun-policy recommendations to Congress.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) of 1994 included language which prohibited semi-automatic rifles like the AR-15, and also large-capacity magazines with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds. The ban was allowed to expire after 10 years on September 13, 2004. The mass murders that followed the ban’s lapse make clear that it must be reinstated.

On Wednesday night, Rubio said at a town-hall event hosted by CNN that it is impossible to create effective gun regulations because there are too many “loopholes” and that a “plastic grip” can make the difference between a gun that is legal and illegal. But if we can see the different impacts of high- and low-velocity rounds clinically, then the government can also draw such distinctions.

As a radiologist, I have now seen high velocity AR-15 gunshot wounds firsthand, an experience that most radiologists in our country will never have. I pray that these are the last such wounds I have to see, and that AR-15-style weapons and high-capacity magazines are banned for use by civilians in the United States, once and for all.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Primula Baggins »

I read this, too, and I highly recommend it (if you aren’t squeamish).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by RoseMorninStar »

It is a bit graphic, but it should make us uncomfortable. It is a life and death matter. Especially if we are entertaining the idea of something as drastic as arming teachers. Seventeen (or more) people could easily be shot (and dead) before someone with a handgun determines where the shooter is, have a clear shot, a cool head, and excellent aim in a crisis situation. Bullets from a semi-automatic are much faster than a handgun. The killer has a definite advantage.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Alatar »

This might be overly simplistic, but why don't they legally limit the size of magazines to 3 or 5 shots? This would allow for a second or 3rd quick shot for a hunter if an animal is injured or enraged, but would at least give a window of opportunity to disarm a shooter?
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Re: Gun Control Debate

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Alatar wrote:This might be overly simplistic, but why don't they....
Whatever the end of that sentence is, the answer is the same.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Dave_LF »

RoseMorninStar wrote:An article from The Atlantic written by the radiologist who was working in the trauma center that handled the victims of the Parkville shooting. Well worth the read.
That's a good article, but I think it falls partially into the trap Maria pointed out by over-focusing on the AR-15. She does allude to this a few times, but much of what she says applies to most or maybe even all rifles.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Frelga »

Dave, my reading was that it specifically describing the difference between injuries caused by an AR-15 compared to other gunshot wounds in the experience of this radiologist, so I wouldn't call it an overfocus.

There's also the fact that, specs aside, it almost always IS an AR-15. Maybe the kind of mind capable of shooting up a school wants a gun that looks like a wicked military weapon?
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Maria »

Any rifle bullet packs a lot more punch than a pistol bullet. Just look at the cartridges. The amount of powder in the cartridge determines the speed that the bullet travels and is directly responsible for the amount of energy delivered at impact. Rifle cartridges are often twice as long or more than pistol cartridges. More gunpowder means more chemical energy expended per explosion.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

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So does that go against the argument that a semi-automatic handgun is just as bad?
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Maria »

It really depends on the handgun, doesn't it?
Common-Bullet-Sizes-e1510170492287.jpg
Common-Bullet-Sizes-e1510170492287.jpg (159.34 KiB) Viewed 7651 times
The skinny little .22 LR (LR stands for Long Rifle) round is a fraction of the size of the other rifle rounds. And some of those pistol cartridges look like they hold more powder than the smaller rifle cartridges.

The bullets are bigger on the rifle rounds, though, which is also why they impart so much damage.

I hate .50 caliber machine guns. The sound hurt my sinuses something awful when I had to fire one back in ROTC training camp.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

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Frelga wrote:Dave, my reading was that it specifically describing the difference between injuries caused by an AR-15 compared to other gunshot wounds in the experience of this radiologist, so I wouldn't call it an overfocus.
Yes, but the difference is really rifle wounds vs. (typical) handgun wounds. The danger I see is if some sort of campaign forms up specifically against the AR-15, and if by some miracle it succeeds, it won't actually achieve anything. Killers may prefer the AR for reasons of "style", but as long as there are equally lethal options on the shelves, restricting it won't have any effect. And then opponents will be able to say "see, gun control doesn't work!" If we're going to call for restricting anything, we need to go after the entire class. A half-measure will be worse than useless.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Maria »

By the way, the 5.56 x 45 mm .223 is what an AR 15 fires.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Frelga »

I don't think the data supports the argument that they will just use something else. First, they are not using anything else now, with all the available choices. Also first, mass shootings went down while the ban on assault weapons was in place, and went up again after it expired. So let's put the ban back in place and then we'll see what else we need to ban.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Maria »

Define assault weapon.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

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As defined in the ban that expired in 2004.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Dave_LF »

Frelga wrote:I don't think the data supports the argument that they will just use something else. First, they are not using anything else now, with all the available choices.
Well; inasmuch as that's true, it's because they don't need to. Take away that choice, and they might move on to plan B.
Also first, mass shootings went down while the ban on assault weapons was in place, and went up again after it expired. So let's put the ban back in place and then we'll see what else we need to ban.
But is it cause and effect. I don't know. It kind of goes back to my earlier question about which comes first: the gun or the decision to kill. If there's something about owning a assault rifle that just makes you feel so powerful and badass you start to think it would be a shame not to go assault something, then yes, maybe banning that specific firearm would help. But if people are snapping first, then buying the guns, and then going on their rampages, I think they'll just use whatever's available.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Frelga »

That data is discoverable. Based on memory alone, often the shooter will be discovered to have a cache of weapons, not just one gun, which suggests that guns do come first. If you find info that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested in hearing.

But I also don't want to get too sidetracked on gun geekery (which I find fascinating) and hypotheticals. We had a law in place. Shootings went down. We removed the law. The shootings went up sharply. Where's the downside to reinstating it, as a simple small step?
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Dave_LF »

But I'd interpret that the exact opposite way--if an eventual mass murderer spends years amassing an arsenal, it would seem to me that on some level, that's what he'd been planning to do with it all along.
Where's the downside to reinstating it, as a simple small step?
I just feel like any change to gun laws is going to cost so much political capital, it's really important to get it exactly right the first time.

ETA: In Wikipedia's list of the 20 deadliest mass shootings in recent US history (which actually includes 23 entries due to ties), "weapon(s) used" includes "semi-automatic rifles" 8 times. In only two of those (Las Vegas and Stoneman Douglas) was the semi-automatic rifle in question an AR-15, and in one of those two (Las Vegas), the AR-15 was just one of several SARs used. In addition, one incident that is described as involving "multiple weapons" (the Geneva County massacre) has the AR-15 on the list.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Maria »

Frelga wrote:As defined in the ban that expired in 2004.
I wasn't trying to be snarky. The lack of a solid definition is part of the problem.

Wikipedia says
A key defining law was the now-defunct Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994.[13] At that time, the United States Department of Justice said, "In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use."[3]

Common attributes used in legislative definitions of assault weapons include:

Semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting a detachable magazine[10][13]
Folding or telescoping (collapsible) stock,[13] which reduces the overall length of the firearm[15]
A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon[13]
Bayonet lug,[13] which allows the mounting of a bayonet
Threaded barrel, which can accept devices such as a flash suppressor, Suppressor,[13] compensator or muzzle brake
Grenade launcher[13]
Barrel shroud, which prevents burning of shooter's arm or hand as a safety device.[citation needed]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

Much of that list is purely cosmetic. The rifle I carried in the Army, for instance, was definitely an assault rifle- but it didn't have a folding stock or a pistol grip or a grenade launcher. And who worries about the ability to attach a bayonet, for pity's sake? And every rifle or pistol I can think of includes something to keep you from burning your hands on the barrel.

The whole term "assault rifle" is rather nebulous. A detachable magazine is a feature of most pistols that I've ever seen. Lots of rifles don't have detachable magazines, but do have their reloading capability hidden in the stock.

If we ban assault weapons without defining them by functions instead of appearance, it's pretty useless. Gun manufacturers will just create other rifles with the same capabilities as the AR 15 but make them look like hunting rifles. Where there is a demand, our capitalist society will fulfill it. edited to add- without regard to the spirit of the law, of course.
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Re: Gun Control Debate

Post by Frelga »

Maria, I wasn't trying to be snarky, either. I apologize if I came across that way. Whatever we had then seemed to work, so it seems reasonable to do the same thing again.
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