Gun Control Debate

[anthriel]

Point taken, Anthy. There is no way to know the intent of someone breaking into your house, or even someone approaching you on a city street. I was over reacting to the pro gun people who do say they are justified in shooting anyone who steps on their property, regardless of motive, and will even shoot an unarmed burglar fleeing from an encounter.

Wow. I really was concerned about upsetting you with my thoughts, narya, because I know how emotional this topic is for you. But you took listened to me and thought about it, and framed your response clearly and cordially- and wrote something I wholly agree with.

I agree with you that there are folks out there who say they will shoot anyone who steps on their property, and they seem to relish that thought. They terrify me. But that sort of rhetoric is not really about protecting the TV either, I think. That's about chest thumping and posturing, and in personifying some sort of tough-guy stereotype to the degree that they might perhaps talk themselves into doing something that they would always, always regret.





You are a class act, miss narya.

[RoseMorninStar]

I'm just glad your dinner worked out. I've been in situations (not necessarily on the gun topic) where I'm so on guard whether it's religion, politics, what-have-you, that it's hard to enjoy yourself.

[anthriel]

I'm just glad your dinner worked out. I've been in situations (not necessarily on the gun topic) where I'm so on guard whether it's religion, politics, what-have-you, that it's hard to enjoy yourself.

Isn't that the truth. My own mother and I have many "off-limit" subjects. That makes me sad.

[RoseMorninStar]

My mother & I do too! It makes me sad as well.

[Primula Baggins]

My mom and I never did. I feel lucky. Except that she isn't here. . . .

[narya]

My thoughts exactly, Prim.

[Frelga]

Prim,

Anthy,
Wait. Before I get to your longer message - did Mr. S sit in readiness in case he was called on to defend the party? With his gun? I thought he was watching the grill or something! That kind of vigilance does not seem necessary outside of an active war zone! Or was I write the first time, and it was just the burgers he was vigilant about? (In which case my apologies to you and Mr. S)

That said, to your longer point - I am truly sorry if my post caused you any distress. I was about to say that I did not mean to imply that the decision to buy a self-defense weapon = killing to protect the TV. Except... I'm not sure I didn't.

First off, what a terrible experience! I am so full of admiration for how you handled it!

I never had an invader in my house, but someone put a half-brick through my window once. Second floor. Glass all over my son's crib, thank goodness he was downstairs. The sense of violation, the feeling of safety stripped away has stayed with me for months. We got the house alarm after that, and I used to keep it on while I was home. At least I knew no one was breaking in if the alarm didn't go off. (And yep, the first thing the police asked was where my husband was. As it turned out, they didn't mean him being there to comfort me)

Had I seen the guy, though, would I have shot him? I hope not.

Then there was that time back in college when a guy would not let me pass, and I got so angry, I punched him in the solar plexus. He went down, gasping. That was a Bad Life Choice. If he had been really dangerous, he could have seriously hurt me. Given that he didn't, he didn't deserve me attacking him with that degree of violence. If I had a gun though? Would I had shot him? I hope to heaven not, but I don't know. He grabbed my hand, I think, and I was angry. At least my punch did not do lasting damage.

But if I had a gun and there was an actual invader in my house, how would that go? There are basically four scenarios that I can see.

1. I shoot and kill or seriously injure the intruder
2. I miss, or graze him, or I just draw and point to scare him off. The intruder then:
a. Runs away or surrenders
b. Draws his own weapon
c. Rushes me to take my weapon from me


If it's 1, I may have killed a man and I will never know for sure that he intended to hurt me. Also, I am now facing a lengthy legal process. As a white, no longer young woman, I would probably come through OK.

2a is the scenario most people hope for, right? That means that my intruder wasn't drunk or high, and probably not very violent, and probably I could have dealt with the situation without the firearm. As anthy did. But maybe not.

2b or 2c - now I have no options except to shoot with the intent to cause maximum damage within the split second. If I don't, I am probably dead. I would not bet very much on my accuracy under such circumstances, so yeah, probably dead. Had I not pulled a gun, I might have survived. But maybe not.


To be continued...

[Maria]

Defense of property and defense of animals is somewhat blurred on my place. I've been kind of worried about my cattle since reading this article last year: http://fox4kc.com/2015/12/29/police-sea ... northland/

Thieves just shot a couple of cows in the pasture and field dressed them and took the meat, leaving the calves to starve to death! Some of my cattle are pets and I will be keeping them until they die of old age. If I came across someone who had just killed my favorite cow.... I don't know what I'd do. Call the police and attempt to detain them until help arrived, I guess. They wouldn't get much more than a slap on the wrist, though. The chances of me coming upon them during the act is slim, though. I see my cattle just a few minutes each day. A thief would have to be rather stupid to choose the time to steal them when the home owners are home.

[RoseMorninStar]

I've been mulling this conversation over the last couple of days. Twenty years or so ago I wouldn't have had such negatives opinions if someone had said they wanted to get a gun for target practice (a hobby of sorts), or a hunter who wanted a gun for deer/turkey/etc.. hunting, or a rancher (as above) who lives in an isolated area, or even the odd collector. It's not my thing, but I don't think it would have raised concerns the way it does today. I believe the issue is that there is a culture of violence; a gun culture and attitude that is something more than what we have experienced in the past that goes beyond what I would consider reasonable/normal. That is not to say that everyone who owns a gun/guns is like that, but there is definitely that 'wing nut' element.

My father had hunting guns which I never saw unless he went hunting. Presumably he also had a pistol that I never, ever saw (although my mother did-- he threatened to kill her/himself once). As unstable as that is, he didn't tote AK 47's down to the farmers market to intimidate people, or pull it on someone who didn't turn their phone off at the theater. There is something off these days. A frenzy of sorts and I don't think it's a good thing.

[Primula Baggins]

People are angry and afraid, many for good reason. That puts stress on any culture.

It's people being angry, afraid, and heavily armed that's causing this dangerous frenzy.

[Maria]

This is apparently a popular sign nowadays:

[anthriel]

Prim,

Anthy,
Wait. Before I get to your longer message - did Mr. S sit in readiness in case he was called on to defend the party? With his gun? I thought he was watching the grill or something! That kind of vigilance does not seem necessary outside of an active war zone! Or was I write the first time, and it was just the burgers he was vigilant about? (In which case my apologies to you and Mr. S)

I think my sarcasm threw you off. No, he was armed and ready in case "anything went down". Luckily for us, dinner was just dinner.

That said, to your longer point - I am truly sorry if my post caused you any distress. I was about to say that I did not mean to imply that the decision to buy a self-defense weapon = killing to protect the TV. Except... I'm not sure I didn't.

LOL! Well, that is at least an honest thought!

First off, what a terrible experience! I am so full of admiration for how you handled it!

WHAT? Thank you, you are wonderfully kind, but I didn't "handle" it using any brain matter not developed during the lizard years. TOTAL reaction. I'm lucky it worked out okay, but there was not a lot of admirable thoughts going on there!

I never had an invader in my house, but someone put a half-brick through my window once. Second floor. Glass all over my son's crib, thank goodness he was downstairs. The sense of violation, the feeling of safety stripped away has stayed with me for months. We got the house alarm after that, and I used to keep it on while I was home. At least I knew no one was breaking in if the alarm didn't go off. (And yep, the first thing the police asked was where my husband was. As it turned out, they didn't mean him being there to comfort me)

That is totally scary. And the comment about your husband hits home.

Had I seen the guy, though, would I have shot him? I hope not.

Perfect. Right there. I don't even need to comment on the rest of your post, because that quite does it for me. I would hope not, too. But if I stood by and got hurt, raped or killed, or any of my family hurt, because I WON'T go there? Well, I guess I'll have to take my chances. I think it's a rare problem to have, here in even my sketchy neighborhood.

[Lalaith]

Totally swiped this from ang on FB:

The first Olympic medal won by the United States was in shooting and 190 other countries are like "yeah that sounds about right"

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Firearms Merchant Files Class Action Lawsuit Against PayPal And Other Payment Processors

Blair Gladwin, owner of the California based Gladwin Guns and Ammo, filed three class action lawsuits last week against online payment processors PayPal, Stripe, and Square for singling out him and other firearms businesses.

The payment companies required Gladwin and the other owners to reveal the nature of their dealings — after which the payment companies refused to work with them.

Gladwin claims this type of discrimination is a violation of California’s Unruh Civil Rights Act Sections 51, 52(a) and 52(c), a law that protects federally-licensed gun stores from such refusals of business transactions.

The class action lawsuits, according to a press statement, are on behalf of himself and all federal firearms dealers who were barred from starting an account or had an account terminated by a payment processor because of the type of business they ran.

An interesting case. On the one hand, I do not approve of forcing anyone to do business with anyone else. But on the other hand, you are required to bake the damn cake. He is using the laws that exist (laws I don't necessarily approve of) to fight for his privileges under those laws. He's demanding that the laws as benefits others benefit himself in the same way. Pretty clever.

So ... should the electronic payment processors also bake the damn cake?

[Griffon64]

There's nothing illegal about selling guns and ammo. I don't know whether there's additional hoops before you can sell those online, but if he's running his business lawfully they should process his payment.

[Inanna]

I agree.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think that is a stretch to apply the Unruh Civil Rights Act to gun dealers. Generally speaking, the law prohibits discrimination by business establishments on the basis of sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, age, disability, medical condition, marital status, or sexual orientation. However the California courts have stated that the list is not exclusive. For instance, it was interpreted to apply to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation before that was specifically added to the list. It has also been interpreted to prohibit discrimination by landlords against people with minor children. However, I've never heard it applied to anything similar to discrimination on the basis of one's occupation, as these folks are claiming. No, its not illegal to sell guns and ammo, but that doesn't mean that a business like paypal has to participate in such a business if they don't want to. I would be surprised if this lawsuit doesn't get thrown out.

[Frelga]

One man.
23 guns.
58 dead
More than 500 wounded

[RoseMorninStar]

I saw a post online that I thought was poignant. It's not quite an equivalent but I thought it was salient anyway:
"The GOP insists that the Vegas shooter's gun arsenal is a 'right', but medical treatment for the 500+ (wounded) survivors is merely a 'privilege'."
A pretty sad commentary.

[Dave_LF]