Racially motivated shootings in South Carolina Church

[River]

yov, first of all, that pie chart appears to be for psychiatric drugs in general, not just Suboxone. Second, that article was a huge load of misinformation about opiates and addiction. Which is about what I'd expect from an article that cites WorldNetDaily as a source of information.

[yovargas]

I shouldn't have been surprised. It was a sketchy lookin' site...

[River]

That being said, there are valid questions about how effective Suboxone is in treating opiate addiction. And there is an underground trade in Suboxone for addicts who're trying to get clean sans treatment center or who can't afford their drug of choice or have an engagement where they can't show up high but can't show up in withdrawal either.

We've given the opiate component of Suboxone to one of our cats. It made her very drowsy. Otherwise, she wasn't acting any crazier than usual.

[Lalaith]

Voronwë, what restriction are you advocating, exactly? That someone arrested on certain charges not be allowed to purchase a firearm? I can't quite tell from your post.

I can't say that I have an exact regulation in mind, because I don't have the necessary expertise. Perhaps I am being naïve, but ideally a regulation providing for background checks that would be sufficiently narrowly tailored to prevent someone who obviously is disturbed from obtaining a dangerous firearm without unduly infringing on citizen's constitutional right to bear arms.* I would think that any arrest for a narcotic would be enough to raise flags, regardless of the specific accuracy of the chart that yov posted regarding Suboxone. When the suspicious circumstances of the arrest are taken into account, I would think that that should be sufficient to suggest that this is someone that should not own a firearm. Surely a regulation on background checks could be devised that would prevent a sale under these circumstances without preventing law-abiding citizens to obtain a gun if they wish to.






* I don't agree with the Supreme Court's interpretation of the second amendment in Heller, but I accept it as the final word on the subject, unless and until the Supreme Court reverses it or a constitutional amendment is passed, neither of which I expect to happen.

There are laws to this effect already, but I don't think they're tight enough. From what I've gathered from Freddy, a licensed dealer with a FFL (federal firearm license) has to ask about mental health issues, and the person has to sign something saying that they don't have any. (Clearly, that's not a tight enough regulation.) A private transaction, however, doesn't even have that restriction. It is illegal for a person adjudicated as mentally ill cannot possess a firearm legally. Again, how do you enforce that? Not easily. Like you said, some kind of background check might help, but many of these mental health cases go under the radar. And how do you determine which mental health issues disqualify someone? What if I have a situational depression, and I'm diagnosed as such. But then I'm fine, either with medication or without (with time and maybe therapy). ?? Should I be allowed to have a gun?

I don't know. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is problematic without infringing on 2nd Amendment rights. In my opinion. I'd like to see some tighter restrictions (or, maybe the better way to phrase it would be to say, some actual teeth behind the existing laws already in place).

[Faramond]

1. The Confederate Flag in South Carolina is above a memorial on the grounds of the State Capitol, not on the building itself. It was removed from the building in 2000 as part of a compromise.

2. It's going to take a 2/3 vote of the State Assembly to take it down, though after the governor and both Senators from the state called for it to come down there may be some momentum for it.

3. The flag symbolized armed insurrection against the United States for the purpose of continuing slavery when it was first carried into battle. In the 1940's and 1950's it became a symbol of segregation and white supremacy. Maybe at different times it's symbolized something better than these things, such as remembrance of war dead or regional pride, but on the whole it's been a negative symbol for a lot of people. It should go.

4. I think a lot of political will and debate that might otherwise have gone into gun control advocacy has been sucked into the question of the flag. This seems backwards to me.

[Primula Baggins]

1. But it is still on public display with the Capitol building behind it, as witness many images recently. That is either an illegitimate borrowing of credibility, or a covert endorsement by the state government.

2. Let's hope.

3. Word word wordity word. WORD.

4. Nobody wants to talk about gun control, because it's become the untouchable third rail. The same people who won't touch the idea of increasing the strength of gun control in the wake of a blatantly racist tragedy can preserve their liberal bona fides by talking about the flag.

[River]

On one hand, yes, this talk about the flag is sucking the air out any discussion regarding gun control. But, as you said Faramond, the flag has to go. This incident has made the topic very touchable. Taking it down would send an powerful message and, unlike any attempt at gun control, might actually happen.

[Sunsilver]

Re: the gun control issue...I wonder how many people will be shocked by this chart, which I am fairly sure is from a reputable source:

[yovargas]

If one wanted to get real scientific about it, one would try to see if there was any real correlation between a country's gun control laws and it's gun violence. I've heard it said that there isn't much correlation but I don't really know. (I suspect a stronger correlation would be found with deep, systemic poverty as seen in our US ghettos, where most of our gun violence is.)

[Alatar]

Anyone on my facebook will have seen a brilliant response to the whole US gun control thing told through comedy, but I don't think it belongs in this thread.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Those horrible, terrible no-good GOP confederate flag panderers have been around for a long time.



Oh, wait ... .

ETA: (To be clear, it is not confirmed that this was an official Clinton-Gore campaign button, but they certainly didn't distance themselves from it. Things are very rarely black and white in politics, in the USA or anywhere.)

[River]

According to Snopes, if those buttons truly date to the 1992 campaign they weren't officially sanctioned.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think this is worth posting here: http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/presid ... 1714260805

[Primula Baggins]

That was wonderful Voronwë. Thank you for posting the link.

My husband and I watched Obama's eulogy for Rev. Pinckney last night—Rachel Maddow devoted the last 40 minutes of her show, commercial-free, to showing it, telling her viewers to go get their kids and everyone else in the house and come sit down and watch this, because we have to watch this.

It may be the most powerful speech I've ever seen. Strong, truthful, but overflowing with grace rather than rage.

Here's the C-Span link, with a full transcript—but this is a speech you must hear rather than read. Call and response.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4542228/p ... al-service

[Sunsilver]

Here's another link in case the C-Span link doesn't work for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK7tYOVd0Hs (It didn't work for me.)

What a wonderful, powerful speech! I've always liked Obama, and refused to believe all the horrible stuff I've heard about him from various sources. It's easy to become cynical about politicians, but after hearing that speech...WOW! I hope he lives to see some of the changes he pleads for, as his country sorely needs them!

BTW, the transcript leaves a bit to be desired in places...'that saved a wrench like me"???

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Just to revisit the issue that was discussed earlier in this thread about background checks and Mr. Roof's purchase of the gun he used, it turns out that under existing law, the background check should have prevented him from purchasing the gun. However, a series of missteps from a clerk at the jail to the FBI, combined with very tight adherence to the three day limit (as compared to California, which imposes a 10 day waiting period to try to avoid missteps such as this), led to his being able to purchase the gun anyway.

http://news.yahoo.com/jail-clerical-err ... 36334.html

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Poem by Poem

poem by poem we can end the violence
every day after
every other day
9 killed in Charleston, South Carolina
they are not 9 they
are each one
alive
we do not know

you have a poem to offer
it is made of action — you must
search for it

run outside and give your life to it
when you find it walk it
back — blow upon it

carry it taller than the city where you live
when the blood come down
do not ask if
it is your blood it is made of
9 drops
honor them
wash them stop them
from falling

- Juan Felipe Herrera, U.S. Poet Laureate
in memory of Cynthia Hurd, Susie Jackson, Ethel Lance, Rev. DePayne Middleton-Doctor, Rev. Clementa Pinckney, Tywanza Sanders, Rev. Daniel Simmons Sr., Rev. Sharonda Singleton, Myra Thompson, RIP

[Primula Baggins]

That's so powerful. Thanks, Voronwë.