Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Person

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Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Person

Post by Alatar »

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1192 ... vance-work

Interesting article on Gender politics, with all the variables the same, except one. Gender.
Ben Barres is a biologist at Stanford who lived and worked as Barbara Barres until he was in his forties. For most of his career, he experienced bias, but didn’t give much weight to it—seeing incidents as discrete events. (When he solved a tough math problem, for example, a professor said, “You must have had your boyfriend solve it.”) When he became Ben, however, he immediately noticed a difference in his everyday experience: “People who don't know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect,” he says. He was more carefully listened to and his authority less frequently questioned. He stopped being interrupted in meetings. At one conference, another scientist said, "Ben gave a great seminar today—but then his work is so much better than his sister's." (The scientist didn't know Ben and Barbara were the same person.) “This is why women are not breaking into academic jobs at any appreciable rate,” he wrote in response to Larry Summers’s famous gaffe implying women were less innately capable at the hard sciences. “Not childcare. Not family responsibilities,” he says. “I have had the thought a million times: I am taken more seriously.”
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by narya »

My transgender son can see the difference in the way he is treated by those that don't know him, depending on whether or not he has a small beard that week. Without it, he could still easily be mistaken for a woman.

I was heavily discriminated against when I first entered the engineering field. It was appalling, in fact. I'd like to think things have gotten a little better since then and that people value me as a professional regardless of my looks.


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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Dave_LF »

Alatar wrote:When he solved a tough math problem, for example, a professor said, “You must have had your boyfriend solve it.”
It's unclear exactly when this happened, but making that sort of comment would get you in a lot of trouble now. Especially at a university. Especially especially at a university in California.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by JewelSong »

Dave, people still say cr*p like that all the time. It only "gets you in trouble" if the person it was said to is prepared to make a stink about it.


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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Quite true, unfortunately.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Dave_LF »

People say all sorts of stuff all the time when there is no power dynamic. Less often, they say stuff even when there is one. But a professor to a student? I could easily see that turning national-headlines bad for him. Which isn't to say I don't believe it happens, but I bet it happens a lot less often than it did even 30 years ago (just a guess at when the incident may have occurred). But that's all beside the larger point of the article.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Actually, it happens quite a bit at Stanford in particular, I'm sorry to say.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by River »

The philosophy department at CU Boulder is in heaps of trouble right now for bad behavior towards women and a few other things. The thing is, and the reason a woman who's been smacked with sexism might not come forward is first you don't really want to believe or recognize that such a thing happened to you and second, you, the accuser, are going to be taking a lot of heat for bringing forth the accusation.

Barres wrote an article about his post-transition experiences some years ago. It made the rounds in the lab I was working in. The women found it depressing. The men didn't get it. But they rarely do. That is their privilege.

I am actively looking for work as a scientist. I am also a female of reproductive age. The former is blatant. I have a very feminine first name. The latter you can suss out pretty easily from the dates on my resume. There's no way to tell from my resume that I actually have a child, but still 80% of American women will have a baby in their lifetime. I can't help but wonder if that isn't why I don't even get a phone interview, though I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons why.

Also, I got in so much trouble as a graduate student whenever I stood up for myself that I pretty much stopped doing it. This is not helpful to me at all. When one of my male colleagues pushes and nudges and doesn't take no for an answer, he's showing leadership, being strong, whatever. When I do it, I'm being rude, pushy, inconsiderate, and so on. Throw in a good lab mind-frak and I have some stories it just hurts too much to tell. I try to tell myself it's just me, I just stand up wrong, I'm just a wuss, but...I wonder. Oh how I wonder.

I also had a labmate in graduate school who had an alarming tendency to "bump" into my behind. There is an official channel for dealing with that, but remember what I said about taking heat? It wouldn't just be me substantiating the claim to my supervisor and whoever else I went to, it would be my supervisor leaning on me very hard to keep it all under wraps because this sort of thing would reflect poorly on the lab. So I dealt with it by threatening to charge him $5 every time he did that. He stopped.
Last edited by River on Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Dave_LF »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Actually, it happens quite a bit at Stanford in particular, I'm sorry to say.
I'm really surprised to hear that. Does tenure protect professors who behave that way? I've just heard of so many people getting fired or disciplined for so much less.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

For each of the ones that get fired or disciplined there are probably dozens that never do.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Frelga »

And scores of women who get into more trouble than the men they complain about.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Sadly, true. Which is not to say that things haven't gotten better. Just that there is a very long way to go.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Frelga »

I came here looking for a thread to share this. Not that I think our men need that advice, but you never know when you may need to pass it on. ;)

The Rock Test: A Hack for Men Who Don’t Want To Be Accused of Sexual Harassment

But as I scrolled down the forum, it occurred to me that there is a simpler way to answer the question in the thread title. Just ask a woman.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Alatar »

Yeah, but its wouldn't be as funny! :)
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Cenedril_Gildinaur »

It goes a little farther than that. The creeps will be creeps, by definition. The rest are going to extraordinary measures to avoid being lumped with them, to the detriment of everyone.

It’s Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone With the Opposite Sex.
Article published July 1st, before the current news story about the guy in Hollywood.

Also this, a more recent story.
Unintended Consequences of Sexual Harassment Scandals
But elsewhere, men have begun avoiding solo interactions with women altogether. In Austin, Tex., a city official was formally reprimanded last month for refusing to meet with female employees, after he ended regular mentoring lunches with one.

Some tech investors have taken similar steps. “A big chill came across Silicon Valley in the wake of all these stories, and people are hyperaware and scared of behaving wrongly, so I think they’re drawing all kinds of parameters,” said a venture capitalist who spoke anonymously for the same reason.

Some are avoiding solo meetings with female entrepreneurs, potential recruits and those who ask for an informational or networking meeting.

“Before, you might have said, ‘Of course I would do that, and I will especially do it for minorities, including women in Silicon Valley,’ ” the investor said. “Now you cancel it because you have huge reputational risk all of a sudden.”
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Primula Baggins »

But who are the spoilers here? Is it the women who started finding the strength to speak up? Or the jerks who sexually abused them?

Let's just lay the blame where it belongs.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Impenitent »

But elsewhere, men have begun avoiding solo interactions with women altogether. In Austin, Tex., a city official was formally reprimanded last month for refusing to meet with female employees, after he ended regular mentoring lunches with one.

Some tech investors have taken similar steps. “A big chill came across Silicon Valley in the wake of all these stories, and people are hyperaware and scared of behaving wrongly, so I think they’re drawing all kinds of parameters,” said a venture capitalist who spoke anonymously for the same reason.

Some are avoiding solo meetings with female entrepreneurs, potential recruits and those who ask for an informational or networking meeting.

“Before, you might have said, ‘Of course I would do that, and I will especially do it for minorities, including women in Silicon Valley,’ ” the investor said. “Now you cancel it because you have huge reputational risk all of a sudden.”
Here's the thing, though: you only have a huge risk if you act like a jerk. If you act decently, like you would if there's someone watching, there is no risk - unless one assumes that all, or most, complaints are fraudulent.

Which they are not.

The problem is not that the women CLAIMED these men acted like jerks. These men, in fact, acted like jerks.

If the fear is that suddenly all women are going to cynically make false claims, that is a leap of false logic. Of course there will be false claims, but no more than there ever were because the world's population of female sociopaths is not going to suddenly jump.


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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by Frelga »

Yeah... I don't see how, after a story of systemic, deliberate, devious abuses has been made public it is in any way logical for any rational person to come to the conclusion that the correct reaction is to stop perfectly innocent and professional interactions for fear of false accusations.

Of course, it's all "some say" and "many feel", and possibly "this author made up for not entirely nice reasons."
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by yovargas »

Impenitent wrote:Of course there will be false claims, but no more than there ever were because the world's population of female sociopaths is not going to suddenly jump.
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Re: Why Aren't Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Pe

Post by River »

Maybe start with "Your coworkers are excluded from the mating game and they did not take this job to get dates" and proceed from there?Seriously, it's not that hard to not harass a colleague. If all else fails, talk about work. That's what you're at the workplace for anyway. Once you've figured out the magic of boundaries you can progress to the standard bull sessions but if you're so afraid of your social skills that you're convinced "What's the best lunch spot?" or "Can you believe what happened on Game of Thrones last night??" could be misconstrued then stick with "What's the proper format for this report?" or "When's that printer getting fixed?"

But, of course, harassment isn't the primary problem with advancing in the workplace. It's getting lots of attention right now, but the bigger issue (and the one Prof. Barre was writing about) is one of biases and how they play into perception of work quality and ethic, which spills over into basic respect.
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