So there's this riot going on right now

[Cerin]

Ax, I've been wondering what you thought about the declared state of emergency and curfew. Sensible? Repressive? (It seemed a sensible decision to me, and not overly restrictive, midnight to 5 a.m.)

[axordil]

Curfews are inherently problematic, since they automatically impinge on First Amendment rights of speech and assembly. The Constitution doesn't contain the phrase "except after dark" anywhere. Thus they should be reserved for situations where civil authority and public infrastructure have broken down, such as after a major natural disaster. It's not like the power is out, the phone lines are down, and supplies can't make it into Ferguson.

In this case they also smack of Sundown Town laws.

[Cerin]

Thanks, ax. I had not heard the term 'sundown town' before.

[Jude]

Question for the legal experts here:

If the journalists arrested were to sue the Ferguson Police for interfering with their rights, would it likely be successful?

[kzer_za]

So the autopsy says Michael Brown was shot 6 times, twice in the head. Even if he attacked the cop first or went for his gun, that is way beyond any reasonable standards for self-defense against an unarmed man.

[Cerin]

So the autopsy says Michael Brown was shot 6 times, twice in the head. Even if he attacked the cop first or went for his gun, that is way beyond any reasonable standards for self-defense against an unarmed man.

My impression is, simply from news accounts over the years, that when once a police officer deems his/her life to be threatened, they are trained/permitted (?) to respond with overwhelming force. Hence the accounts of people being shot 40 times when it appeared they were drawing a gun that turned out to be a wallet. So with no expertise on the subject, I would say the first crucial point from the perspective of the officer, is to determine whether he legitimately felt his life was under threat.

Even if he did, though, I don't see how there could be any justification for shooting after there was distance between them and the arms were raised. The only explanations I can muster are total panic and malicious intent. I imagine the officer's fate will depend on that determination.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Question for the legal experts here:

If the journalists arrested were to sue the Ferguson Police for interfering with their rights, would it likely be successful?

I don't have enough information to make even an informed guess, but I would say that the odds would be stacked against them because the police would say that they were acting out of the believe that they needed to act to protect public safety. I think the journalists would need to prove that the police were specifically motived by a desire to prevent them from reporting on the facts, which will be difficult to do. Even if it is true.

[Frelga]

Military veterans see deeply flawed police response in Ferguson

Quotes from veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan with experience in dealing with hostile crowds on the ground.

“We went through some pretty bad areas of Afghanistan, but we didn’t wear that much gear,” said Kyle Dykstra, an Army veteran and former security officer for the State Department. Dykstra specifically pointed out the bulletproof armor the officers were wearing around their shoulders, known as “Deltoid” armor.

“I can’t think of a [protest] situation where the use of M4 [rifles] are merited,” Fritz said. “I don’t see it as a viable tactic in any scenario.”

Ferguson police have defended their handling of the protests and said some demonstrators have been trying to “co-opt” peaceful protests. But while the Ferguson and St. Louis county police departments may have made their presence felt in the streets, they have made only limited use of social media.

“They’ve kept people in an information black hole,” King said, mentioning that their decision not to share details about operations more widely has only exacerbated the situation.

[Frelga]

Dp

[narya]

Here's a different point of view:

http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/ ... M.facebook

While I disagree with some of it, I certainly agree that a human life is not on the same level as property, and that this fundamental law was broken.

[Cerin]

Lots of good points; but the destruction of property can't be allowed to go unchecked. I understand why that is deemed just a distraction by the writer in the context of her piece, but it is more than a distraction to those who will be left without livelihoods or places to shop when those bent on violence (many being outsiders, according to reports) pack up for their next theater of action.

[axordil]

Notably, the police "softened" last night, not starting out with everyone in riot gear; when someone threw a water bottle, they responded at the "retail" level with arrests and pepper spray, not "wholesale" with tear gas and rubber bullets. They ended up arresting 47 people--so in terms of actually dealing with troublemakers (assuming that's who they went after) it was much more productive than starting out in full G.I. Joe mode.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, it seems to be that the real troublemakers were dealt with more effectively, while the genuine protesters were far less impacted by police actions.

In reading theNY Times article of the different accounts of the shooting, it struck me that even if Officer Wilson's version is completely true, the shooting was still wildly inappropriate and probably criminal.

According to his account to the Ferguson police, Officer Wilson said that Mr. Brown had lowered his arms and moved toward him, law enforcement officials said. Fearing that the teenager was going to attack him, the officer decided to use deadly force.

When this statement is combined with the findings of the preliminary autopsy (that the shots came from some distance away, and that the fatal shot entered the top of Mr. Brown's head), I don't see any way that this officer can not be charged with a crime.

[Frelga]

And it shouldn't have taken a riot.

[Cerin]

It might not have needed a riot. We might speculate on what would have transpired without a riot, but those speculations would just reflect our prejudices. The officer couldn't be held to account except by following the prescribed course of an investigation, and I imagine that would have happened along the same timeline without any riots.

[axordil]

I doubt very much any real investigation would have taken place without some form of outside pressure. There would have been a quick whitewashing and this would be another unhappy statistic by now.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sadly, I agree. But while I think the likelihood of a federal civil rights case against Officer Wilson is very likely because of the high standard of proof, there may well be a broader federal investigation into the pattern and practice of racial profiling and the use of excessive force in the Ferguson Police Department that could lead to some real changes.

But it will take time.

[Frelga]

The story behind one of the most iconic photos from Ferguson - the flag and chips guy.
Subject of iconic photo speaks of anger, excitement

[Frelga]

Meanwhile in Ferguson, the protestors tried to close off the highway, leading to new confrontations with the police.

If that's not too far off topic.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Meanwhile in Ferguson, the protestors tried to close off the highway, leading to new confrontations with the police.

If that's not too far off topic.

It might be worth seeing whether I could split off the discussion about "privilege" into a separate thread. I'll see what I can do.