Gaming, athletics, and other activities

[JewelSong]

Or... you know...we could simply strive NOT to make value judgements about other people's pursuits.

Eh, why not. If someone were to say "Striving hard at physical activities develops discipline and character to a greater degree than video games and therefore it is a more worthwhile and admirable pursuit", well, what's wrong with that?.

Well, I guess you could make that judgement for yourself. What I am getting at is more like the scenario Nin describes, where she is subject to teasing and ridicule because her family thinks her interest in LOTR is stupid and juvenile.

There is nothing more invalidating than being told that something you are passionately interested in, something that fulfills you and makes you happy, is worthless and stupid. Especially when the people telling you are people who supposedly care about you.

[River]

For some reason, running engages the "chore" part of my mind, especially on a treadmill, or a track, or through an landscape that I personally find uninspiring.

Yeah, I have that problem with running too. Unless the weather is foul. Then it gets interesting. Also with swimming in closed water and riding an exercise bike or regular bike on a training stand. Climbing an indoor wall is also pretty meh. I enjoy bicycling on an open road, though. I see, hear, feel, and smell things I wouldn't if I'm in my big, heavy, motorized metal box and I get to take in a bigger picture of the area than I would on foot. Even so, it's more of a moving meditation for me than a creative act. It's also a way to let off some steam and/or escape the day for a little while. Unfortunately, I very rarely manage to stop thinking about science while I'm on my bike, though it dials back significantly as I really need to be paying attention to the road. Really, I only stop thinking about science when I'm doing something that will kill me if I divert even an iota of attention from the here and now.

As for video games, I've never been into them. Except for Tetris. That said, people who are into them will say they develop problem-solving skills and spatial reasoning skills through the games. Depending on their game of choice, gamers I know will also say they're letting off steam or just escaping the day for a little while. From the look and sound of some games, I get the impression that the player is interacting with a story. Might not be a story I personally enjoy, but whatever works for you.

[Inanna]

if we're going to make value judgements, should we judge the activity as sort of an isolated ideal, or should we rather judge the effects the activity has on a person, on an individual basis?

Or... you know...we could simply strive NOT to make value judgements about other people's pursuits.

But we DO make judgments, and judgments against societally-accepted negative pursuits (such as smoking crack) are accepted by all, and no discussion happens.

Relatedly, I remember a college acquaintance's facebook post about "seeing 5 teenagers stuck to laptops in starbucks playing a game. So sad". And my response was - Man, if they are playing an MMORPG I envy them. I miss LOTRO!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

For those who asked for more detail as to how exactly running and similar activities are different than, say, doing the dishes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/healt ... .html?_r=0

[Frelga]

But then there are those like my friend Annie Hiniker, who says that when she finishes a 5-k race, the last thing she feels is euphoric. “I feel like I want to throw up,” she said.

On a more serious note, any exercise releases endorphins, that's been established. Running is still a mindless activity, ime. As opposed to, for example, martial arts practice, which requires full engagement of mental focus as well as physical effort, or hiking, which can engage every sense.

Mindless is fine, though. When the brain is free from consciously supervising the body and large muscles are working, good thinking can happen. And possibly fitness can improve or dishes get clean in the meantime.

However, thinking is not enough for a creative activity. There needs to be output, in whatever form.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I would respond further, but I would much rather go for a nice long bike ride.

[Frelga]

Keep your mind on the road.

At least when there's car traffic.

[Alatar]

I've done quite a lot of most of the things discussed (including washing dishes) and of all of them I find running least satisfying (ok, maybe more than dishes). I love cycling, but don't feel its is intrinsically "better" than gaming, reading or watching a good movie. Its certainly as enjoyable at times, and has the benefit of keeping me fit, but as an entertainment or leisure pursuit its pretty uncreative. I find acting and music are when I'm most creative, but gaming scratches a different itch, one that none of the others can quite reach. I need all of them to be happy. None are more important than the others.

[anthriel]

Oh, great. Someone let the Monster in.




Just to state for the record: I've never met an endorphin. NEVER. I don't care who says what, I think y'all are making up the whole endorphin nonsense to justify your clearly addict-based passions for stuff like running and biking.

No, I don't "understand", either. I'll never understand. I spent three years running 30 miles a week, and other than a smug self-back-patting on a regular basis for having stuck with it (not an easy thing for me) I got nothing out of it. I wasn't even all that thin. I think I ate more, because of all that running. I'm sure my heart was heathier, I get all that, but MAN was that boring WORK.

I can't remember getting any deep thinking done, either. All I can remember thinking is something like "50 minutes to go! You can do it! The first 3 miles are the hardest! Jeez, I hate that itchy spot between my shoulder blades when I start to sweat! My underwear are riding up, is anyone looking, can I tug them down? 45 minutes to go! STILL? Only five minutes into it? Who runs in Florida, anyway? This is unbearably hot! Did my watch stop? Is the sweat killing my watch? Dear God, make that 45 minutes go by FAST!".

I did it because it was a personal challenge to do it, because I felt like if I kept with it long enough I would somehow magically meet that first endorphin (No! Never DID!), and because it was Good For Me. Like flossing my teeth and getting to bed on time is good for me. Like that.

Flossing isn't fun, either. No endorphins. It has exactly the same effect on my fun-o-meter as running. Zip.


Now horseback riding, that's a different thing altogether. For, you know, ME.

[axordil]

It would be a dreadfully dull world were we all carbon copies.

Even if we were all copies of someone really interesting.

Even the people here.

Except maybe nel. If we were all nel that would be okay for a while, just terribly confusing when it came time to split the check.

Did I mention I'm on medication right now?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

On a more serious note, any exercise releases endorphins, that's been established. Running is still a mindless activity, ime. As opposed to, for example, martial arts practice, which requires full engagement of mental focus as well as physical effort, or hiking, which can engage every sense.

Once again you show that you don't understand the activity. To be successful at martial arts, you need to dedicate yourself to achieving and maintaining proper form and technique. The exact same thing is true for running or other endurance sports. One cannot successfully run a marathon, or complete a century ride, without discipline, focus and perseverance. Riding a horse would largely be a mindless activity for me, but that is because I don't understand what it takes to properly ride horse, not because the activity itself is inherently mindless.

[JewelSong]

Once again you show that you don't understand the activity...Riding a horse would largely be a mindless activity for me, but that is because I don't understand what it takes to properly ride horse, not because the activity itself is inherently mindless.

Or maybe...it might be mindless for you even if you did understand it, because it is not your "cup of tea." Because you, personally, don't like it.

You are assuming that if someone DOES "understand" something, that he/she will then LIKE DOING IT. You are assuming that the only thing standing in the way is that it has not been fully explained.

I remember a poster on these boards (who hasn't been seen in a while) who felt very similarly about political and social issues. He thought that if only he explained himself in the right way, people would see things his way and agree with him. And though many of us often DID understand his viewpoint and "got" where he was coming from, it did not cause us to agree with him.

You are doing the exact same thing here. I think it comes across as quite condescending (and even arrogant) for you to continue to insist that the reason a particular person doesn't like to do something is because of a lack of understanding.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said or implied in any way that anyone should enjoy any activity that they do not enjoy, and I am getting heartily sick of you insisting that that is what I am saying. All I have said is that saying that running and other endurance sports - as opposed to other activities like martial arts or even hiking - is a "mindless activity" shows that one doesn't understand what it takes to be successful runner, and that it denigrates the dedication and perseverance and mental strength of athletes that have achieved success in those disciplines. There is nothing condescending about that at all. The fact that it is not to your taste, or Frelga's taste, or anthriel's taste, or Nin's taste is irrelevant. I have not denigrated any activities important to anyone else. I wish the same courtesy were shown by others.

[yovargas]

There's a big difference between "running" and "intensive, long-distance, competitive running". I bet you could make world-class competitive dish-washing into a mentally intense activity if one wanted to but that doesn't change that by and large, to most people, dish-washing is a mindless activity.

[axordil]

Most of the discipline in physical culture--the honing of form and conditioning in general--is baked into training, not competition. A professional baseball player who thinks about the mechanics of his swing consciously while swinging is in trouble. In that respect much of upper-level athletics is mindless--in the same sense that performing classical music is at a comparable level. The discipline and thinking happens before so it doesn't have to happen then, because thinking during performance gets in the way.

[Primula Baggins]

At least in musical performance, I know enough to know that there's a level of thought above the technical physical act of playing (and you're right, thinking about that part of it during performance can be disastrous). I don't think the point of technical preparation is to induce mindlessness; it's to get that part of it out of the way so your brain can focus on the actual art of the performance—the musicality, the feeling.

I suspect it's the same in athletics, though I wouldn't know. I would guess from watching a lot of baseball casually as I walk through a room that the automaticity of, say, fielding a hard-hit ball is what lets the player make an instant strategic decision about where he should throw it.

[axordil]

the automaticity of, say, fielding a hard-hit ball is what lets the player make an instant strategic decision about where he should throw it.

Right. There are tactical considerations in performance--decisions about musicality, whether to throw all the way home or to the cutoff man--but not "am I overblowing right" or "am I starting on the right foot to throw."

[JewelSong]

All I have said is that saying that running and other endurance sports... is a "mindless activity" shows that one doesn't understand what it takes to be successful runner, and that it denigrates the dedication and perseverance and mental strength of athletes that have achieved success in those disciplines.

And here is where we disagree, Voronwë. Just because something is a "mindless activity" to ME...(or to Anthy or Frega or Nin) does NOT "denigrate" anything. At ALL.

Nor does it mean that we don't "understand" it. It simply means that WE find it "mindless." When WE, personally, do it.

What I trying desperately (and obviously unsuccessfully) to get across is that this is a PERSONAL opinion...not an overall judgement about any specific activity.

I thought my little anecdote about my father's appreciation for my mother's love of the ballet (even though he, personally, found it deadly dull) was a good explanation.

I am not meaning to put words in your mouth and I am sorry that you are "heartily sick" of my posting.

[Frelga]

V, you keep shifting the point. Now it turns out you were talking about high performance athletes, and competitions as opposed to solo runs, and it looks like you are conflating the discipline and willpower required to keep in training with the focus demanded by the activity itself. Although I doubt even the high performance athletes keep thinking about actual mechanics of running while running. Anyway, the point was not important in the first place, and as it appears to be a sensitive spot for you, I'll leave it alone.

But you don't get to tell me what I do and do not understand just because your experience with it is different than mine.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, I am not shifting the point. Running is a discipline, just like any other, whether it is being done in competition, or just for private benefit. If you think that it does not require any mental effort, than you don't understand it, no matter how many times you insist otherwise. It would be like me saying that randomly banging on the keys of a piano is as much music as applying skill and knowledge and technique to the instrument. No matter how many times I say that that is true because it is my opinion, it is not true. Playing music on the piano requires the application of some degree of skill and knowledge and technique, whether it is being done professionally, or just for private enjoyment. Running requires mental discipline whether it is done in competition or doing it for your own personal benefit. Otherwise you are just going through the motions.