Gaming, athletics, and other activities

[axordil]

All creators must first be consumers of that they would create--and all creators depend on consumers, else they slide into solipsism.

Things like MMPORGs are not only avenues of consumption, but for a kind of performance art. The games are stages, and the players strut about them, signifying a bit more than nothing.

[Frelga]

Second. Subjectively, I find running a pretty mindless activity in general.

That's because you don't understand it. Most runners observe that they do their best thinking when they are running. I find the same for when I am biking.

Was that an example of a thoughtful and courteous response we aspire to here?

I do understand running, thank you very much. I got caught in the craze when that pernicious book was translated into Russian, and used to run a couple miles a day voluntarily in my teens. That's in addition to the involuntary running I had to do in my fencing practices. Cross-country, too.

Running enables thinking BECAUSE it's a mindless activity in itself and the brain desperately seeks a distraction. Doing dishes does the same thing, and you get clean dishes into bargain.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm sorry but that very response shows that you don't understand the activity. It is as different from doing the dishes as I could imagine.

[Frelga]

That's because you don't understand doing the dishes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I do 'em every day. No dishwasher, either.

[Nin]

I fully agree with Frelga. I could not even say how much I agree with Frelga. (And I think that comment about not understanding running was extremely condescendant - like the inability to understand the superior activity of running from someone's point of view who does simply not enjoy it.)

I tried to run, I tried really hard and for a long time with my best friend who enjoys running and desperately tried to explain to me how it made her feel. It did not do anything for me - it was boring, mind-numbing and awfully repetitive. One of the worse activities of all time for me. And moreover, not creative at all. What do you create by running?

In the same manner, I dislike gaming. I find it boring, time consuming and complicated.

But give me a needle and thread, fabric and patterns every day. Recently, I discovered that I love complexe coloring books. I can't draw, but I love art. It's my own way to be creative.

BUT: when my family came over for a visit, I hid all my color pencils. Because I did not want to be mocked over it, did want to be obliged to justify myself for enjoying such a childish activity like coloring. I still have to justify liking Tolkien in my family - because for them it is boring fantasy. If only I'd run! Everybody would understand that.

I think that distinction between worthy and worthless activities can easily become very dangerous, because it is extremely judgmental. You get a kick out of running: great! It allows you to function in this world, to reach other goals, to feel balanced: wonderful. But don't expect it to be the remedy for everyone.
I don't think that running or sewing or cooking (would that be creative or not? I am using things someone else made? where is the limit?) do make us better or more worthy humans beings.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It is not meant to be condescending, just an observation. I do not understand needlework, and would not be remotely offended by someone telling me that I don't understand it. Just because I do not understand the value of it does not in any way lessen that value.

[yovargas]

I do not understand needlework, and would not be remotely offended by someone telling me that I don't understand it.

You might be if you had real experience doing needlework and someone still told you that.

[Griffon64]

Second. Subjectively, I find running a pretty mindless activity in general.

That's because you don't understand it. Most runners observe that they do their best thinking when they are running. I find the same for when I am biking.

I find running mindlessly boring. All my brain wants to think about is "Are we done yet?" And I've done a lot of running in my lifetime. I stopped doing it after some point because I wasn't getting anything out of it. That said, I'm happy for people who get something out of it, because I get that "something" from other activities and I know what a joy it is to have something you do that gives you that. I also find that riding a bike demands just enough environmental awareness for safety reasons to actively interfere with my ability to do my best thinking while thusly engaged. I blame my lack of coordination.

Gardening, however? My very best thinking is done bent over a gardening fork digging up the soil. Ditto when I'm on a long walk, or a hike through the mountains. And yes - I can also get some good thinking in while doing the dishes, or cleaning the house. In those two cases, for exactly the reason Frelga mentions - my mind is casting around for something to do. In the other cases - physical activity I enjoy - it is because the act of being active opens up and stimulates my mind. In both cases I end up with mental stimulation, but I can do exercise I don't enjoy all day long and I won't get that wonderful mental release from it.

So I guess like Frelga I don't understand, either. What I don't understand, though, is why you feel the need for statements that seem to look down on other people's ability to engage in good thinking while doing physical activity just because they're not doing what seems to be one of your "approved" activities for such a pursuit, such as your two examples of running or biking. If you get something out of riding your bike, and, for example, Frelga gets something out of doing the dishes, and I get something out of swinging a mattock, it is a good thing that everybody is able to get some nice thinking in, and that's that.

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I too am somewhat uncomfortable with the notion that creation is somehow categorically "worthier" than consumption. In some cases, yes, it is. But is, say, creating something that no-one consumes - or want to consume - still "worthy"?

*flippant*

Where have I heard about this whole maker-taker thing before? Oh, right.

*end flippant*

For myself, I get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of "active" endeavors as opposed to passive ones. I value "active" endeavors more, in other words. But that is because it brings me more joy and satisfaction to be engaged in them that it does to, for example, slouch in front of the television watching something on screen. Even reading the news on the internet, and yes, playing a video game, is more enjoyable, to me, because it requires at least a little input from my side. But many people seem to actively enjoy television, so to speak. If it works for them, good.

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nerdanel - regarding addiction as a problem. I personally am concerned by the harm addiction does, whether it is to society, to the addicted, or only to a small circle of people unknown to me who are affected by the addict's condition. Addictions often take a mental toll from the people closest to the addicted.

What I had in mind was the tendency of some people to only be concerned about something if it affects them directly. To me, that is not an admirable trait to have. In return for enjoying the benefits of society one should pitch back into it wherever a need exists, not only when it directly benefits one. In my opinion.



PS: I just saw Nin's post while previewing mine for spelling errors and the like, and I think it is a very good post that brings across my feelings on this subject. I am wary of the judgmental undertone of considering some ( active ) activities "superior". Like Nin says, it is not the remedy for everyone.

I think it is more important that people be aware of the fact that active pursuits is an important part of what brings balance and fulfillment to life, and that they strive to find their own niche of happiness in active pursuits, rather than try and hold up some "ideal" activities and judge people if they don't find them appealing. That is counter-productive.

You might be if you had real experience doing needlework and someone still told you that.

Yes, there is definitely a difference, between abstract and concrete, theoretical experience and actual personal experience.

[JewelSong]

Second. Subjectively, I find running a pretty mindless activity in general.

That's because you don't understand it. Most runners observe that they do their best thinking when they are running. I find the same for when I am biking.

See, I think what is wrong with Voronwë's statement is the underlying assumption that if only you DID understand running, then you would not find it mindless. If only you really, really understood it, you would like it. That fact that you don't like it, the fact that you find it "mindless" means that you don't understand it.

But it is very possible to totally understand something and still not like it or want to do it.

I'm a music teacher. It is my job to understand and appreciate all types and genes of music. To be current with artists and what is happening in the music scene. And I do pretty well. However, I detest rap. I understand it. I can even recognize and appreciate an expert rapper. However, I am not fan of the genre and doubt that I ever will be.

(Once my son, while visiting me in London, spent a good two and a half hours trying to get me to like rap. He made a good case and I understood every bit of what he was saying. It all made sense. But I still hate it.)

We all have different likes and dislikes. What we need to do is acknowledge that and appreciate each other's differences in taste, hobbies, activities, leisure activity of choice...and not try to claim that one is intrinsically "better" than the other simply because that is our personal favorite.

(Another anecdote. My mother loved the ballet. Adored it. My father...well, he didn't. Not at all. But he loved my mother and he loved that SHE loved it. Once, while he was driving home from upstate New York, a classical ballet piece that my mother loved came on the radio. My father pulled into a rest stop (this was way before cell phones) called my mother on the pay phone and put the receiver next to the radio, so she could hear her favorite piece.

He didn't give a rat's patootie about the ballet or about the music. But...he valued the fact that my mother DID.)

[yovargas]

I'd come in to make the point Griff already did - I think the more accurate distinction isn't so much between "creative vs consumptive" as it is between "active vs passive".

As to judgment, yes, I don't feel much qualm to say that active activities are generally "higher" than passive ones. The danger is that some people hear "Activity X is more worthwhile than Activity Y" and interpret it as "People who do Activity X are more worthwhile than People who do Activity Y" but that doesn't need to be the case. It also doesn't to need to be the case that if I say "X is better than Y" that it means Y is bad, that you should stop doing Y, or that people who enjoy Y are inferior humans. If I introduce you to two people, one that's an austronaut and another that's a waiter, it would be absurd to pretend that the austronaut hasn't achieved something far greater than the waiter. I should be able to make that judgment without the waiter feeling slighted - that's a judgment of their achievements, not of the person. For all I know the austronaut may be an awful, evil scumbag but the achievement is still worthy of high praise and admiration.


(PS - Faramond!!! )

[Voronwë the Faithful]

So I guess like Frelga I don't understand, either. What I don't understand, though, is why you feel the need for statements that seem to look down on other people's ability to engage in good thinking while doing physical activity just because they're not doing what seems to be one of your "approved" activities for such a pursuit, such as your two examples of running or biking. If you get something out of riding your bike, and, for example, Frelga gets something out of doing the dishes, and I get something out of swinging a mattock, it is a good thing that everybody is able to get some nice thinking in, and that's that.

I never said anything about anything being better than something else, just that they are different. If someone gets a benefit from doing the dishes beyond the practical necessity of having clean dishes, more power to them. But it is not the same benefit that one is going to get from running 10 miles, or biking 30, or swimming a mile. It is physically and mentally a different experience (gardening could be closer, but it still isn't the same). I continue to maintain that to assert that they are the same benefit is to demonstrate conclusively that you do not understand. That is not to suggest that you even should understand. Different stokes for different folks. I have no problem whatsoever with that. If someone else does, I apologize. I should know better than to get involved in a discussion such as this.

[Faramond]

The primary point of finding certain activities more worthy than others is to prioritize one's own activities, not to look down on others or make judgements about what someone else is doing.

I'm sorry but that very response shows that you don't understand the activity. It is as different from doing the dishes as I could imagine.

Well, she doesn't understand what *your approach* to running is, but not everyone does it the same way. I guess you don't understand her approach to running either. I think some elaboration would be helpful, an explanation of your understanding, rather than the bald accusation that she doesn't understand. It's just so -- terse.

Some people find running mindless, and others don't. I don't think it really is mindless -- it requires a rather rigorous mental discipline, doesn't it? I think calling running "creative" is a stretch, though I sort of like it, too. Maybe one is creating physical fitness in oneself, and a kind of mental discipline. These things can make someone a better person and more valuable to society in a way that playing a video game cannot. Running is certainly an endeavor in a way that playing a video game isn't. I guess some of you disagree?

I mean, I think I should run a lot more and play a lot fewer video games. I do think running is a more worthy activity than playing video games. But a comparison is not a criticism, or a judgement of anyone else.

[JewelSong]

If I recall, Voronwë, you once made a statement to the effect that you found it ridiculous that anyone would think that a city was "beautiful." In your frame of reference, cities are ugly. Maybe you simply do not understand!

It's a very subjective thing.

For some people, running is and always will be, a mindless activity. Whether they "understand" it is moot.

[Griffon64]

Of course those activities are different. But I think they also have different outcomes based on the people doing them, and that is a function of the person, not the activity. Not everybody's limits are set at the same notch.

For a contrived example, maybe think of two different people doing different activities that, say, engages 70% of each of their physical capabilities, along with, say, 50% of their mental capability.

I would ask, aren't they getting the same thing out of their activities because of what those activities mean / do to their own individual bodies and minds? Sure, one of them is biking up a mountain while solving calculus equations in their head and the other one is, say, walking back from the grocery store with a heavy load while thinking about a project at work. But they're both engaged to the same level.

Is the fitter, smarter one better simply because they're fitter and smarter? Doesn't it count the same that the grossly overweight and unfit office drone is working just as hard, relative to the gifts and attributes they have?

I guess what I'm asking is, if we're going to make value judgements, should we judge the activity as sort of an isolated ideal, or should we rather judge the effects the activity has on a person, on an individual basis?

ETA: everything after V's post is new to me!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[OT]Nice to see you here, Faramond![/OT]

[Griffon64]

The primary point of finding certain activities more worthy than others is to prioritize one's own activities, not to look down on others or make judgements about what someone else is doing.

This is something I agree with. To me, my jurisdiction for judging the "worth" of activities towards the top of Maslow's hierarchy ( things such as creativity and other things that are done as an activity for self-actualization ) ends at my own experience of it and my own judgement of what I get out of it.

I think calling running "creative" is a stretch, though I sort of like it, too. Maybe one is creating physical fitness in oneself, and a kind of mental discipline. These things can make someone a better person and more valuable to society in a way that playing a video game cannot. Running is certainly an endeavor in a way that playing a video game isn't. I guess some of you disagree?

Running, to me, definitely takes a kind of mental discipline. It requires application and a willingness to endure discomfort for future reward, for instance.

However, I find that I can endure discomfort better on some activities than others. I have a much larger capacity for sweating my way up a mountain, off the beaten track, to see a tarn few people ever see, than I have for pounding pavement along a busy street, for example. I'd rather create my fitness that way, or through physical activities other than running. For some reason, running engages the "chore" part of my mind, especially on a treadmill, or a track, or through an landscape that I personally find uninspiring. I can only really motivate myself to run if I have some ulterior reason for seeking the physical benefit it provides. I would be a much happier person for having seen that tarn than I would be for having run up to the equivalent physical exertion.

Now, just to play devil's advocate on video games. To me, there is some value in playing a video game at a challenging level, a level where I lose more often than I win - and much less to no value playing it at a level where I always or almost always win. Engaging in a video game that usually beats you takes mental discipline too, doesn't it? Many people, including myself, are a bit soft when it comes to taking punches to the ego. Learning to grit your teeth and pop back up after a setback in an environment where the stakes ( to yourself, and to society ) are so low as to be non-existent should have some value, maybe? Having someone mope around in "real life" as they learn to roll with the punches is more taxing to others than having them work on getting the whole "I suck at everything. I'm worthless" response that many people have to failure out of their systems in a "playground" environment. Losing doesn't matter in a game. So what if a bug in the game killed one's character? So what if it wasn't their fault? Stuff happens in real life too where one just have to breathe, relax, accept, and move on.

Of course it doesn't compare to a real life tough situation, but someone who cannot handle failure in a no-stake environment may be even worse at handling it in the "real world". Maybe. It stings to fail, and it should, but the outward response to failure can and should be modulated through mental discipline. Mental discipline should be acquired through some activity that hones it. Possibly, for some people, that could be through video games. So I guess I'm just considering whether the judgement that video games are "worthless" in this context is too easy. I actually do not have a final opinion either way.

I mean, I think I should run a lot more and play a lot fewer video games. I do think running is a more worthy activity than playing video games. But a comparison is not a criticism, or a judgement of anyone else.

I think this is the crux. I think the importance is for each person to realize for themselves that, metaphorically speaking, they will get more bang for the buck "running" than "playing video games". But each person has to find their own running, and dial down their own video games.

Off topic, I am enjoying this thread because considering different viewpoints broadens my own perspective. If I come across as abrasive or unduly challenging to viewpoints other than my own, that is my failure and I should work on it. I poke much harder at things I find interesting, in other words. Being agreed with is not a stimulating activity.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As far as I am concerned, you are the last person that I would consider to be coming across as abrasive or unduly challenging to viewpoints other than your own, Griffy.

[JewelSong]

if we're going to make value judgements, should we judge the activity as sort of an isolated ideal, or should we rather judge the effects the activity has on a person, on an individual basis?

Or... you know...we could simply strive NOT to make value judgements about other people's pursuits.

Off topic, I am enjoying this thread because considering different viewpoints broadens my own perspective.... I poke much harder at things I find interesting...Being agreed with is not a stimulating activity.

Yes, indeed.

[yovargas]

Or... you know...we could simply strive NOT to make value judgements about other people's pursuits.

Eh, why not. If someone were to say "Striving hard at physical activities develops discipline and character to a greater degree than video games and therefore it is a more worthwhile and admirable pursuit", well, what's wrong with that? You can dispute the accuracy of that statement (I think it's probably generally true but it's certainly contestable) but I certainly think it's valid to try and make those kinds of judgments about things in life.

(To repeat myself: it doesn't need to be the case that if I say "X is better than Y" that it means Y is bad, that you should stop doing Y, or that people who enjoy Y are inferior humans.)