Deletion discussion

[anthriel]

(And B77 had a different....shall we say..."vibe" than HoF. Things were a lot more volatile and many more posts got edited out after much personal mudslinging. That is not the case here. Quite the opposite.)

However, the editing you did made me feel shut out of that discussion, even all this time later. I didn't like it, and it robbed the reader of the context of the story.

You can't have it both ways; it can't be bad when other people do it, and okay when you do it, on whichever board you are posting. The effect is the same... in fact, it was magnified in the b77 thread. When other people respond strongly to your now ellipsed post, it completely stripped out the whole context. Now their responses look weirdly strong, and out of place.

Your original complaint here was about a post to a link that was deleted, and never responded to, that you and many others didn't even notice was gone. The only reason you knew it was gone was that the poster mentioned it.

Nothing was lost in that thread. In the b77 threads, the whole point of the conversation was lost.

[anthriel]

In fact, my post above looks like it was just in one thread. It was in many threads, and many, many times. It was jarring to keep running across it, as I was poking around, especially from you.

It did illustrate your point of the irritating effect of deletions, btw.



Sir V: I DO listen to you. Always.

[Alatar]

I'm not good, never have been, at the distant cut-and-parry that so many enjoy.

Neither am I Anthy, and in fact I'd say very few of us on here are.

I have broken Al's definitons about what kind of deleting is okay, and so therefore he sees what I do as dishonest. (Right, Al? Is that a fair summary of your post?)

Only sometimes, and to be clear, I never think you, Anthy, are personally dishonest, but that the... tactic? (if thats the right word) of deleting is inherently dishonest. Particularly when people have responded. Its like pretending you didn't say something, when you did. Can you see how that feels dishonest? It can make the responders' strident objection look hysterical, or over the top. I just think its unfair.

Please understand that I'm not calling anyone dishonest. Its hard to explain, but you can do something dishonest without "Being" dishonest. For you, deletion is not dishonest, therefore you are not being dishonest when you delete.

Aargh. This is hard.

[anthriel]

I'm not good, never have been, at the distant cut-and-parry that so many enjoy.

Neither am I Anthy, and in fact I'd say very few of us on here are.

Well, that surprises me a lot. I have always wanted to be more like you, Alatar; you are so confident and sure. I can't be more like you, apparently, but I can admire the confidence from afar.

I have broken Al's definitons about what kind of deleting is okay, and so therefore he sees what I do as dishonest. (Right, Al? Is that a fair summary of your post?)

Only sometimes, and to be clear, I never think you, Anthy, are personally dishonest, but that the... tactic? (if thats the right word) of deleting is inherently dishonest. Particularly when people have responded. Its like pretending you didn't say something, when you did. Can you see how that feels dishonest? It can make the responders' strident objection look hysterical, or over the top. I just think its unfair.

Absolutely. I totally see your point, now, and I appreciate you making this statement more clear. Not to beat the topic too thoroughly, but seeing Jewel's many deleted posts on b77 really illustrated for me how the other side of this can look. By deleting her words, she did make the people who had responded look weirdly strident. I couldn't see what they were reacting to, so context was completely lost. And sometimes context is everything.

Please understand that I'm not calling anyone dishonest. Its hard to explain, but you can do something dishonest without "Being" dishonest. For you, deletion is not dishonest, therefore you are not being dishonest when you delete.

But I LOOK like I am being dishonest, and that isn't okay with me. I really do appreciate the rather steep learning curve you folks have afforded me, here... your honest words have taught me a lot. You cannot read my intentions, when you see what I do. You just see what I do, and I can control that.

My pastor says people tend to judge themselves on their intentions, and others on their actions. Quite true, I think.

Aargh. This is hard.

Yes. But I am very grateful you took the time to try to explain this better. I understand, now, what you were saying! That is worth a lot to me.

[Cerin]

But this is ironic, because the anti-editers are campaigning against people restricting their sharing of information and ideas on the boards, but their approach will simply lead to less information shared in the first place - an even more limited exchange of ideas.

Less information shared doesn't necessarily mean a more limited exchange of ideas. Less information shared means a more limited exchange of information. My own personal preference (and this is not in the nature of a campaign statement) would be less information that stays put over more information that later disappears.

Imp says she felt shamed for being ashamed. I agree. Many of the earlier posts in this thread really were jarring, to those of us "tenderhearted souls" (why do I not believe that to be an attribute, in this sentence? ) to whom these words apply.

(Imp, I hope you'll forgive us discussing you) I felt terrible when I heard that Imp felt shamed by the discussion, and had previously felt ashamed about something else. However, I didn't see that fact as faulting the discussion, or the people who made the comments to which she reacted; I saw it as a function of who Imp is. I wouldn't want Imp to be other than she is, and so I can't desire a different reaction from her even though I would prefer that she not feel shame as a result of discussions.

In short, I believe that if we feel a post is jarring, that is our reaction and we need to own it, not shift the responsibility for our feelings to the poster we are reacting to (especially in an environment like this, where everyone is sincere and well-meaning). I don't say people are doing this (shifting responsibility), but felt it important enough to state the point. It is a discussion board, after all. We come here voluntarily, at our own risk (which risks have been minimized at HoF as much as they possibly can be, I think). I have a very hard time seeing anything in this discussion as jarring or shaming, but I understand that everyone is different.

As to why you do not believe 'tenderhearted souls' was meant as an attribute, only you can answer that, and it's a good example of what I'm talking about. Your reaction is the result of a myriad of factors (including your personal impressions of myself) that, put together, equal Anthriel, and result in your interpreting things as you do. (In fact, I admire and esteem the tenderhearted soul, in the way I often look with wonder upon the characteristics and talents of others that I do not share).

Here's what I got from this thread: if I am upsetting you (the greater you) I need to STOP. I don't really have to post anything OTHER than kitty pictures,

This a perfectly acceptable conclusion to have reached from the thread, AS LONG AS YOU'RE AWARE that it is your own conclusion, it is not what other people have said. This reaction ('I need to STOP') is all about who you are, not about what others have said. No one has said, 'Anthy, you need to stop posting as you do.' That is your decision (forgive me for stating things that may be obvious!), and others should not be held responsible for it (I don't mean to suggest that you are holding others responsible, but speaking to a general tendency). If your primary goal is to not upset anyone, if that's what pleases you, then I think that's a perfectly fine goal (though difficult to achieve). Obviously, it won't be everyone's goal. I imagine everyone has a somewhat different goal or priority in coming here, even if they are not consciously articulated.

(Please forgive me if anything there came across as condescending or insulting; it wasn't intended that way.)

[Primula Baggins]

I need to interject a quick response to something Nin said on the previous page:

I also wanted to add a personal experience: ever since I found out once in the current of a thread that some posters on this board can not only edit their posts and even edit them out, but entirely and completely delete them as they had never been there, even after other posters have answered - I never posted alike again. It showed to me very much that there is a double standard. Of course I knew that those are the rules of this board. But to be so bluntly confronted to it has changed my view of what people are here to each other definately and impacted the trust I had.

Nin, first of all, the only people who can invisibly delete a post that isn't the last one in the thread are the admins: Voronwë, Wampus, nel, and me. It's something we need to be able to do to administer the board.

Second of all, we don't do it. We may edit our posts, but none of us would invisibly delete one, even though we can. That's unfair for all the reasons you cite and others beyond—it twists threads out of shape and makes them even harder to follow than if posts are replaced by ellipses. At least in the latter case you know person X said something, to which other posters are presumably responding.

If one of our posts needs to be removed entirely for some essential reason, we edit the content away and leave a note explaining that, just as anyone else here can do.

Okay, one exception: I completely delete my own double posts, and will delete anyone else's if they ask me (though no one has). But one copy of the post is always still there.

[Nin]

I need to interject a quick response to something Nin said on the previous page:

I also wanted to add a personal experience: ever since I found out once in the current of a thread that some posters on this board can not only edit their posts and even edit them out, but entirely and completely delete them as they had never been there, even after other posters have answered - I never posted alike again. It showed to me very much that there is a double standard. Of course I knew that those are the rules of this board. But to be so bluntly confronted to it has changed my view of what people are here to each other definately and impacted the trust I had.

Nin, first of all, the only people who can invisibly delete a post that isn't the last one in the thread are the admins: Voronwë, Wampus, nel, and me. It's something we need to be able to do to administer the board.

Second of all, we don't do it. We may edit our posts, but none of us would invisibly delete one, even though we can. That's unfair for all the reasons you cite and others beyond—it twists threads out of shape and makes them even harder to follow than if posts are replaced by ellipses. At least in the latter case you know person X said something, to which other posters are presumably responding.

If one of our posts needs to be removed entirely for some essential reason, we edit the content away and leave a note explaining that, just as anyone else here can do.

Prim, I am sorry I have seen it happen (invisbly deleted post) and I remember it totally vivid. If you want me to, I can dig out the day, the thread and even the comment that I made when it happened. I remember it so vividly because this was the day when I really felt like a second class poster and it has influenced my feelings towards this board in a decisive manner.

[anthriel]

I love all the parenthetical comments, Cerin! I appreciate you trying to be so accurate (which you always are!) and careful, as well.

However, words do have effects on this board, else why would we even be here? I doubt I would have sat up in bed one day and said " I MUST STOP MY TERRIBLE HABIT!" if others had not come in and told me how much it upsets them.

This reaction ('I need to STOP') is all about who you are, not about what others have said.

Again, that would only be true if I were posting in a vacuum. It is, of course, about who I am; it is ALSO about what others have said. I do appreciate them saying it, btw, as I have learned from it. But the change in my thoughts came about because of theirs.

Of course, and it seems it cannot be said enough, the buck stops with me in how well I "hear", and internalize, those comments. It is a function of who I am. I have accepted responsibility for this repeatedly, and my acceptance is sincere.

I have a very hard time seeing anything in this discussion as jarring or shaming, but I understand that everyone is different.

Thank you SO MUCH for this, Cerin. It is a gift, I think, to be able to acknowledge another view, especially when that view is not obvious to you.

[nerdanel]

I need to interject a quick response to something Nin said on the previous page:

I also wanted to add a personal experience: ever since I found out once in the current of a thread that some posters on this board can not only edit their posts and even edit them out, but entirely and completely delete them as they had never been there, even after other posters have answered - I never posted alike again. It showed to me very much that there is a double standard. Of course I knew that those are the rules of this board. But to be so bluntly confronted to it has changed my view of what people are here to each other definately and impacted the trust I had.

Nin, first of all, the only people who can invisibly delete a post that isn't the last one in the thread are the admins: Voronwë, Wampus, nel, and me. It's something we need to be able to do to administer the board.

Second of all, we don't do it. We may edit our posts, but none of us would invisibly delete one, even though we can. That's unfair for all the reasons you cite and others beyond—it twists threads out of shape and makes them even harder to follow than if posts are replaced by ellipses. At least in the latter case you know person X said something, to which other posters are presumably responding.

If one of our posts needs to be removed entirely for some essential reason, we edit the content away and leave a note explaining that, just as anyone else here can do.

Prim, I am sorry I have seen it happen (invisbly deleted post) and I remember it totally vivid. If you want me to, I can dig out the day, the thread and even the comment that I made when it happened. I remember it so vividly because this was the day when I really felt like a second class poster and it has influenced my feelings towards this board in a decisive manner.

I don't remember which of us deleted a post, what it said, or why, but I do remember this incident. After you raised a strongly-worded objection, we adopted a rule for the four of us that none of us would use the delete button to delete our posts invisibly unless any other poster could do the same (i.e., everyone, including us, can delete our post if no further posts have been made in the thread). If other posts have been made, then we edit our posts the same way as everyone else is able to do, but do not use the invisible-delete button. This rule has been in effect for the four of us for years now, and to my knowledge none of us has made any exceptions to it at all.

[nerdanel]

Oh, I went and looked it up. I was the culprit, and it looks like the reason for deletion in that case was again that I'd written some personal stuff about my family and then rethought my comfort level in sharing it.

Anyway, you objected to my deleting that post in November 2009, and since your objection none of us has deleted any posts. There has not been any "double standard" on this for a very, very long time (in Internet years); your comment deals with old history. (ETA I'm not sure that we ever publicly announced that we had adopted this policy, which we probably should have done at the time - sorry!)

[Maria]

Hey, I've been the target of more than one surprise post deletion by admins here. And with my memory full of holes, this upsets me terribly when it happens because I can only remember vaguely what I said! I wish I could be sure it would never happen again.... but ...well... I'm sure I'll say something so terribly offensive that the only recourse will be for an admin to take it down immediately. Instantly. Before anyone else can be contaminated by my incorrect thinking.

Or not. I try to behave. But obviously my internal filters are set too low.

For those of you who think you've posted TMI posts before.... I've got you all beat. I've told you all What's Wrong With Me down to a biochemical level so many times that only the hardiest dare reply, lest I give even more information in reply.

I've kind of quit doing that, because... well, I've kind of lost interest in it myself. I've figured out enough of what I need to know to cope with chronic lyme disease, and it no longer astounds me when I find out new things. So I no longer feel much need to share. Well, I'll probably get around to telling you all how adrenal fatigue can be dealt with eventually but not now.

I've never seen posts here that struck me as being too personal, or contained too much information... but then my standards are warped, I suppose. Personal is good. It's what makes us people.

[anthriel]

Hey, I've been the target of more than one surprise post deletion by admins here. And with my memory full of holes, this upsets me terribly when it happens because I can only remember vaguely what I said! I wish I could be sure it would never happen again.... but ...well... I'm sure I'll say something so terribly offensive that the only recourse will be for an admin to take it down immediately. Instantly. Before anyone else can be contaminated by my incorrect thinking.

I had a post removed (or more accurately, edited, I think) by Jn once, on this board, and it really surprised me too. I didn't think what I had written would be inappropriate at all! But with that said, I do feel for the people who have to make those decisions. It cannot be easy.

For those of you who think you've posted TMI posts before.... I've got you all beat. I've told you all What's Wrong With Me down to a biochemical level so many times that only the hardiest dare reply, lest I give even more information in reply.

Well, you haven't lost me yet on the Micro stuff. It has actually forged a connection between us that I value.

I've never seen posts here that struck me as being too personal, or contained too much information... but then my standards are warped, I suppose. Personal is good. It's what makes us people.

Agreed.

[JewelSong]

Anthy, you are absolutely right about the series of deletions on B77. I honestly don't remember what the posts were about, or why I deleted them. I haven't been on B77 for a really long time and don't think I even know my password anymore.

I suspect it was in a fit of pique. B77 was a very volatile board and I am ashamed to say that I got caught up in much of the frenzy of personally insulting posts and back-biting that seemed to characterize the board sometimes. Deleting posts in a thread that had become too personal/difficult/ angry/insulting/whatever was my (admittedly immature) way of taking my ball and going home. Sort of like a "nuts to you all" gesture.

I'm not proud of it. But there you have it.

In my very humble opinion, if you are guilty of anything, it is in overanalyzing and second-guessing how people MIGHT possibly, perhaps, maybe feel about one of your posts. Your fear of offending or upsetting ANYONE EVER is (or was) keeping you from posting some really interesting, thought-provoking and unique things. I thought (and still think) that is a damn shame.

You aren't HURTING me...or anyone, really. As Alatar said, I am not lying awake at night because people have deleted or edited posts. If you want to continue to delete and edit for whatever reason, you have the perfect right to do so.

But I think it is much more interesting when you don't.

[Primula Baggins]

In my very humble opinion, if you are guilty of anything, it is in overanalyzing and second-guessing how people MIGHT possibly, perhaps, maybe feel about one of your posts. Your fear of offending or upsetting ANYONE EVER is (or was) keeping you from posting some really interesting, thought-provoking and unique things. I thought (and still think) that is a damn shame.

I could have posted this (though probably more Primmishly).

And maybe that's a rhetorical exaggeration of the thought you put into your posts. As I read some of them, though, I sometimes do find myself wondering what you're not saying!

[anthriel]

That was a very generous post, Jewel.

Anthy, you are absolutely right about the series of deletions on B77. I honestly don't remember what the posts were about, or why I deleted them. I haven't been on B77 for a really long time and don't think I even know my password anymore.

I suspect it was in a fit of pique. B77 was a very volatile board and I am ashamed to say that I got caught up in much of the frenzy of personally insulting posts and back-biting that seemed to characterize the board sometimes. Deleting posts in a thread that had become too personal/difficult/ angry/insulting/whatever was my (admittedly immature) way of taking my ball and going home. Sort of like a "nuts to you all" gesture.

I'm not proud of it. But there you have it.

Which is probably why you think of deleting as passive-aggressive, since in your case, it was about taking your ball and going home. I honestly can't remember thinking that way, myself, as a motivation for editing.

In my very humble opinion, if you are guilty of anything, it is in overanalyzing and second-guessing how people MIGHT possibly, perhaps, maybe feel about one of your posts. Your fear of offending or upsetting ANYONE EVER is (or was) keeping you from posting some really interesting, thought-provoking and unique things. I thought (and still think) that is a damn shame.

Well, I could probably could choose to get defensive about this, but boy howdy, it's just too true. If I had a dime for every time someone has told me I think too much... man, I'd have a lot of dimes.

You aren't HURTING me...or anyone, really. As Alatar said, I am not lying awake at night because people have deleted or edited posts.

Well, honestly, I'm not losing any sleep, either. I came, I heard, I adjusted my habits. That works.

There was one poster who I am sure I did hurt, when they reflected back to me what my practice had looked like to them. That literally stopped me in my tracks. Mostly, I understand I just annoyed (some) people, to the point where it was bad enough for you to want to rant about it. You weren't talking to me, originally, but I am honest enough to own up to my own faults. I did own this one.

If you want to continue to delete and edit for whatever reason, you have the perfect right to do so.

Well, I probably won't. Until I do, and then we can all laugh about it.

But I think it is much more interesting when you don't.

Well, thank you. But "interesting" covers a lot of ground, doesn't it?

In my very humble opinion, if you are guilty of anything, it is in overanalyzing and second-guessing how people MIGHT possibly, perhaps, maybe feel about one of your posts. Your fear of offending or upsetting ANYONE EVER is (or was) keeping you from posting some really interesting, thought-provoking and unique things. I thought (and still think) that is a damn shame.

I could have posted this (though probably more Primmishly).

And maybe that's a rhetorical exaggeration of the thought you put into your posts. As I read some of them, though, I sometimes do find myself wondering what you're not saying!

Are you talking to ME, here, missy? I typically am not saying quite a bit. Beware the poor messageboard if I didn't filter at all!

[Nin]

There has not been any "double standard" on this for a very, very long time (in Internet years); your comment deals with old history. (ETA I'm not sure that we ever publicly announced that we had adopted this policy, which we probably should have done at the time - sorry!)

Well as I had no means to know this, since then I was always wondering if there could not have been a deleted post of which I knew nothing and never felt as comfortable as before in posting. I'm glad to know it now.

But it just shows how much the deletion of a post can affect the level of comfort on a message board.

[Frelga]

There was one poster who I am sure I did hurt, when they reflected back to me what my practice had looked like to them.

Oh, dear. Was that me? I know I made a post, early in the thread, and then went away for two weeks, but I certainly wasn't hurt by anything anthy ever did.

[anthriel]

Yes. It was this post:

anthy, I understand that you delete your posts out of fear that we will judge you for them. In essence, you imagine us being mean or indifferent to you. As your original minion, I feel compelled to object. In that light, l eaving the post up is a sort of Pascal's bet - if it turns out that we are nice and supportive instead, you win because you get support which is nice, right? And if we are mean, horrible people, then you get to feel validated in your judgement, which at least it's a comfort.

This post ascribed feelings and motivations to my habit which were so wildly negative and wrong that I just sat straight back and told myself... never again. If that habit is making ANYONE think that I think of them as mean, horrible people, then no amount of explaining what I do feel is going to help. It just needed to stop.

[Frelga]

Ok, now I need to figure out how you got what you are saying from what I said.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I know, Frelga. I am, have been, and always will be, completely and totally baffled by that. It makes absolutely no sense to me, and it is literally the only time that I can say that about something that anthy has written.