Egypt's new era

[Impenitent]

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4221310,00.html

Egypt's new parliament is considering a law to allow husbands to have sex with dead wife up to six hours after death.

This is supposedly an "Islamist"-led initiative, but my understanding is that Islam, just like the other monotheist religions, frowns on necrophilia.

?

[River]

From the article:

Yet, this was not the first time Egyptians caught wind of the "Farewell Intercourse" law. The law was first introduced in a fatwa (Islamic law) issued by a Moroccan cleric last year. Zamzami Abdul Bari said marriage remains valid even after death. He also said that women have the right to have sex with their dead husbands.

Umm...I have no idea what to say to that. Does this also mean that widows and widowers can't remarry?

[Impenitent]

This whole issue is making my head go wugga-wugga. I don't understand it because, as far as I know, it flies in the face of Islamic law.

I guess some research is necessary to clarify.

[Frelga]

I...

Leaving aside the issue of "who would want to?" Why does there need to be a law? I mean, who's gonna know?

[axordil]

I love the dead before they're cold
Their blueing flesh for me to hold
Cadaver eyes upon me see
Nothing
---Alice Cooper

[nerdanel]

While I find the thought of necrophilia to be viscerally repugnant, my feeling is this: there are enough atrocities being committed against the living. Those atrocities (IMO) - including the ones in Egypt - by far outweigh anything that could be done to a non-sentient dead body. I hope that this red herring doesn't distract people from focusing on the poor behavior that Egyptian men are permitted to inflict on live women.

[Impenitent]

The point, Nel, is that the misogyny would now legally extend beyond death. It is yet another symbol of the devaluing of women in that society.

Moreover, it is a VERY troubling sign of the direction in which Egypt's government appears to be heading. This is not an Arab Spring (not in Egypt); more a return to darkest days of winter.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm with nel. This is very low on my list of concerns in Egypt, or elsewhere.

[Impenitent]

It is symptomatic of the swing towards repression, marginalisation and devaluation of women.

Another article:

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2 ... 10198.html

Other laws being considered, all for alleged religious reinterpretation:
Lowering the marriageable age for girls to 14
Overturning the law that allows a woman to obtain a divorce without obstruction from her husband
Legislations that will strip women of their rights to education and employment.

Most of these "religious" interpretations have been rejected by modern Islamic law. These stripped to the bone interpretations of Sharia law ignore centuries of religious commentary which, like the Talmud, makes the law.

Including this off-the-wall position on necrophilia.

[JewelSong]

I like how they say that this law also applies to women - ie: that wome are also allowed to have sex with their dead husbands, if they want.

But it seems to me that there might be a real logistical problem with this.

[Pearly Di]

It is symptomatic of the swing towards repression, marginalisation and devaluation of women.

I'm with you, Impy.

Other laws being considered, all for alleged religious reinterpretation:
Lowering the marriageable age for girls to 14
Overturning the law that allows a woman to obtain a divorce without obstruction from her husband
Legislations that will strip women of their rights to education and employment.

Most of these "religious" interpretations have been rejected by modern Islamic law. These stripped to the bone interpretations of Sharia law ignore centuries of religious commentary which, like the Talmud, makes the law.

There is so much CRAP out there directed towards women.

No, this isn't news to me. But I will never stop being angry about it.

[axordil]

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... ctd-3.html

The sourcing of the story is not as solid as might be wished.

[Dave_LF]

Wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like standard propaganda (those people do gross things and they like it!)

[nerdanel]

The point, Nel, is that the misogyny would now legally extend beyond death. It is yet another symbol of the devaluing of women in that society.

With respect, I don't believe that anything extends beyond death, certainly not this-worldly treatment. I am concerned with the rights of the born and living, not with the treatment of bodies that are no longer people and will disintegrate slowly or be burned to ashes.

I agree with you that there are serious problems with the devaluing of women in Egyptian society. Indeed, I refuse to recognize or celebrate any "Arab Spring" in Egypt or in other countries where women are not treated with decency and equality. And perhaps in a very marginal way, this proposed bill (were it real, as Ax's link suggests it is not) would provide some "background color" about the unequal treatment of women. But until we have rectified every problem out there with the treatment of real, live women, I really don't care what happens to their/our dead bodies, my future dead body included.

[Túrin Turambar]

Wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like standard propaganda (those people do gross things and they like it!)

It is possible to be skeptical of this particular story but still concerned about the Islamist tendencies of Egypt's new government. Obviously women's rights will be one major issue, but there are others as well.

It comes back to the old dilemma the west has always faced in the region - do we back authoritarian regimes if they align with our interests and values, do we always back democratic processes even if we don't like the outcome, or do we do nothing and deal with whatever happens as we need to?

I admit that I had high hopes for Egypt's western-educated army officers and apparently liberal-minded urban middle class in Cairo. But the situation now seems to be either that we have a democratic Islamist government backed by the rest of the country, or another Mubarak regime. My hopes for the spread of western values in Egypt are not all that good - Islamism seems much stronger than liberal democracy in the world right now.

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

Wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like standard propaganda (those people do gross things and they like it!)

It is possible to be skeptical of this particular story but still concerned about the Islamist tendencies of Egypt's new government. Obviously women's rights will be one major issue, but there are others as well.

It comes back to the old dilemma the west has always faced in the region - do we back authoritarian regimes if they align with our interests and values, do we always back democratic processes even if we don't like the outcome, or do we do nothing and deal with whatever happens as we need to?

I admit that I had high hopes for Egypt's western-educated army officers and apparently liberal-minded urban middle class in Cairo. But the situation now seems to be either that we have a democratic Islamist government backed by the rest of the country, or another Mubarak regime. My hopes for the spread of western values in Egypt are not all that good - Islamism seems much stronger than liberal democracy in the world right now.

Simple answers. The West never backs real democracies, because for starters, the West is not democratic, and to follow, any democratic impulses will be in opposition to the western pseudo-democracy which is "corpocracy".
And I am close to shocked that anyone could have high expectations from western-educated army officers. Idi Amin was a graduate of Sandhurst... and that's just for starters!
It would be tiresome for me to go into repetitive detail, so I'll simply make the statement: there is a propaganda assault against Islam, because Islam (and Islamism) is outside Western hegemony. 'Nuff said.

[Impenitent]

GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.

The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.

LM, I had few expectations and many apprehensions of the consequences of the popular revolution in Egypt; perhaps the difference between us is that I've been jaded by my years while you have the optimism of youth (and long may you hold to it!)

Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.

Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?

The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.

How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?

LM, I had few expectations and many apprehensions of the consequences of the popular revolution in Egypt; perhaps the difference between us is that I've been jaded by my years while you have the optimism of youth (and long may you hold to it!)

I, too, had few expectations of this stymied revolution, because the revolution is yet to happen. Mubarak, the "army leader", is gone, but the army he led is still in power...

Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.

Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?

[Impenitent]

GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.

Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?

In some quarters - and the more serious commentators differentiate between Islam and the more extreme, deconstructed form which is Islamism.

The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.

How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?

I was referring to threats against women's education and employment rights, access to divorce, 'modesty' proposals. Don't get stuck on the extreme for the purposes of sensationalising your claims.

Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.

Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?

Treating physical remains with respect is not the same as establishing a cult.

This is the last response I will make to this GBG.

[Ghân-buri-Ghân]

GBG, even if one accepts the existence of a propaganda assault against Islamism, it would not mean that all criticism of Islamist political developments is propaganda.

Agreed. And I wonder; do you accept there is a propaganda assault against Islam?

In some quarters - and the more serious commentators differentiate between Islam and the more extreme, deconstructed form which is Islamism.

Or perhaps the more "politicized" have created this difference for the purpose of justifying their assaults? It is a sop to the prejudiced to give them the soubriquet "serious", perhaps...

The proposed legislative assault on (hard won and recent) women's rights in Egypt is real.

How real is the specific example cited? It appears manna from heaven for the Islamophobes; legislation for necrophilia! But... is it true? And if not... what is the rationale behind this proffered news story? Not propaganda?

I was referring to threats against women's education and employment rights, access to divorce, 'modesty' proposals. Don't get stuck on the extreme for the purposes of sensationalising your claims.

Did you not introduce this whole topic with "sensationalist claims"? Pots and kettles perhaps...

Nel, while I agree that nothing extends beyond death (other than taxes), I believe that the way a society treats its dead is indicative of its attitude to the living. Therefore, while the deceased women are unaffected by the treatment of their physical remains, society certainly is.

Why? The cult of the dead, in which the remains of the deceased are venerated, is somewhat perverse. A society that treats its dead (eg with incredibly expensive funerals) whilst accepting the absolute impoverishment of the living, is sick, is it not? The dead are gone. No?

Treating physical remains with respect is not the same as establishing a cult.

This is the last response I will make to this GBG.

Fulminating over the (alleged) treatment of the dead must be driven by some agenda. I do wonder what it is. Unfortunately, you have decided to curtail your responses, so it seems I will never know...