Over-Population

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Re: college

Prim, I do sympathize. I am currently paying my way through grad school, which is not quite the same as paying to send kids to college, but gives me a 'taste' of that.

My mother's family had no money to send her to college. Her father's family lost all their money in the stock market crash in 1929, so they sent only their oldest child (out of 11) to college. [He became a dentist, and an alcoholic, and I think committed suicide.] My grandfather was the second oldest, so he worked in a steel mill his whole life. My mother was the youngest of six, so he had retired before she got to college-age. She took out loans and worked as a cocktail waitress (among other things), paying her own way through college (she also paid for her own wedding, which was very small and simple....so much so, that her father-in-law offered to pay for something nicer, if she wanted it).

My father's family told him that they would pay the bill for him to go to college, but he had to go to a co-op program (school 2 semesters, work one semester) - all the money he earned from the job went to his family (before taxes). In this way, he ended up paying a good bit of his own way through college, and his program was 5 years. My father's family was white collar; both of his parents had graduated from college, and his father started a family business.

My parents went to the same college, which is how they met ;).

As I mentioned earlier, they have 5 children...which should be a comfort to them in their old age, but is of course a nightmare at the moment. For 14 years, they will have one or two kids in college every year - the third graduates from college in 2 weeks, and the fourth just made his decision of where he is going ;).

When I (the oldest) was looking at colleges, they told me I could go wherever I wanted to - the money would be worked out. They didn't want me to choose a cheap school just for that reason. But I did choose a state school, and got a (modest) scholarship, so it wasn't so bad. [Oh...and the chem. e. degree I got from U. of Delaware is just as prestigious as MIT, by the way... as my classmates found out when they applied to graduate programs elsewhere :P]

My sister, the second child, went to a private school....but got a full tuition scholarship. So, my parents paid her room and board (and books and such), but again, not too terrible.

The third (the one who is graduating, woo hoo!) went to a small private college - no scholarship. So, yeah, she's the expensive one in the group :P. But she will also have the best-paid job coming out of it - her degree is in nursing. (Okay, okay, if I had gotten an engineering job, I would have been paid well, too! Nobody's fault that I'd rather teach high schoolers....)

My brother, the fourth, is going to an out-of-state state school next year. So, it won't be horrible, but the rates have gone up since I did that. It certainly costs real money!

Supposedly, my father has planned the finances so my youngest brother will also be able to go to college. I know that it is a huge sacrifice they have made for us - my dad made a comment (only once!) that he could have "retired 10 years ago" if he weren't paying for our education. It is a bit sobering to think that my dad has spent years working just to send his kids to school - forget paying for the house or utilities or cars or food or taxes.... Anyway, so I am one of those extremely lucky people who graduated college without a huge debt. I realize that most families can't pull that off - it just isn't feasible.

***********

Re: lifestyle

Yes, in part, it depends a lot on 'what everyone else has.' Cell phones are ubiquitous. The school system I am in has a reasonable rule - the kids may have their phones on them but they must be a) silent and b) out of sight. Teachers can confiscate them, otherwise. And yes, everyone seems to have forgotten about the phone in the office - including the parents :roll: I do not have a cell phone. I maintain that no one ever calls me on the real phone, so why bother? But then my mother always complains that she can't get ahold of me while I'm out. I know that I am a bit weird - I don't have a credit card, either.

What did people do before cell phones? They used pay phones. And they, well, communicated with people when they were available. If you want me to do something for you, tell me a day in advance, not while I'm driving home. Is that so hard? When we lived in the country, my Mom only went grocery shopping every 2 weeks. Somehow, we all managed not to starve. Now that we live in suburbia, she has to stop by the store at least once a week. And while it is closer....it takes just as long to get there and back :roll:

As for traveling....if my car breaks down, I stand on the side of the road until a guy stops who a) has a cell phone or b) can fix it for me. This is, in fact, better than having a cell phone myself ;). Generous people have driven to a gas station and brought me gas when I ran out, changed a flat tire on the side of the interstate, and in general checked to see that I was okay and had a ride and that someone was coming to help me. So, that was good :). [No, I'm not going to get into a strangers car :roll: ]When I travelled by train and was unable to meet someone, I would find the pay phones and call to let him know the plans had changed.

Hmmmm... I can sew. My favorite clothing store is good will. I wear things until they aren't even fit to be rags. I look for bargains. I drive an old used car (well, newish for me - it's a '99), stickshift, no automatic windows. [I buy my cars in cash - this is the third one, and I still haven't spent anywhere near the price of the most basic new one =:) ] The only time I've lived somewhere with AC was in the dorms in college. I haven't really had to pay for my internet connection so far, but I imagine that I would if I had to - that is not something I am willing to give up. To this point, I have abused priveledges at work (and my parents' hospitality). I would not pay for cable TV. In fact...I would not buy a TV for quite awhile. I don't watch it that much. While I was growing up, my friends were always shocked that my family had only one TV and no cable - we got maybe 4 stations. Watching cable was the 'bonus' of babysitting...though I quickly discovered that there was nothing on from 11-12 at night....

My Mom got practically everything as hand-me-downs. Most of my wardrobe came from 'a bag of clothes.' This includes the outfit I am wearing at the moment - a dress and sweater.... She had such a good network going, that people would just deliver stuff to us all the time. Seriously - bags of clothes would turn up on our front porch or in the back of her car at family get-togethers (or in the school parking lot), or whatever. I imagine we gave some stuff away, too, but mostly we wore it out - it had to go through 3 girls or 2 boys ;). I learned from that a little, so set up my own network of used books in high school - one geometry book was purchased new by a student (friend of mine) two years ahead of me, and was used every year through my youngest sister - so, what, 8 years? That thing was so heavily annotated by the time she got it, it was like a collective diary ;). [It was passed down through friends the years it wasn't going to my sisters]

I was raised to be frugal and make good decisions about how to spend money. I don't always do that. Sometimes, I splurge, or make poor decisions. I may go broke before I die, who knows? But I would like to think that I will make sure there is money there for the important things in life....I would like to think I would look ahead a bit and not back myself into a hole. But, bad stuff happens, and being unemployed next year would mess me up. I don't have a job yet. Certainly, I hope to have one by August....but I don't have it yet. I have been lucky so far, but then again, I am very young.....
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Watcher wrote: Maybe this should be a different thread, but THERE is a major sore spot with me. The compensation for top executives in American corporations is OBSCENE, and has grown at a simply phenomenal rate since the 1980's. The leadership is no better, employee morale is no better, returns for investors are no better - so why is this viewed as such a necessary part of American corporate mindset? Really, is it impossible to live high on the hog on a mere $1 million a year salary, do we need to be paying these people packages that often go into the multiple millions of dollars range?
This never actually bothered me that much. Directors’ remuneration, in Australia at least, is decided by the members of the company (ie: shareholders). And if they want to pay someone a million dollars a year to attend to board meetings, I don’t see any particular reason to stop them – it is their money.

Other issues:

Paying for education

Another non-issue in Australia. The Federal Government gives you an interest-fee loan for your university fees that you only need to start paying back if you make over a certain amount of money. I think it’s a great system – everyone can get a tertiary education who wants one, the burden on the taxpayer is not overly high, and because students will need to pay something in the end you eliminate the cases of people spending ten years studying an arts degree. I also like the streamlined nature of our education system – we have no equivalent to College here. I went from High School to studying Law and Arts at University, which was good. I’d have hated to have to spend several more years studying when I could really use full-time earning potential ASAP.

Cellphones

I’m fighting a loosing battle here by my refusal to carry a mobile phone around. I’ll continue to fight it on principle. People got by fine without mobiles 20 years ago, and I can get by fine today.
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Post by Jnyusa »

I’m fighting a loosing battle here by my refusal to carry a mobile phone around.

Me too. I detest them.

Jn
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Though I would hardly call them a necessity, cell phones are a huge logistical help with older kids. I can leave a message on my kid's phone during school, knowing he'll pick it up between classes; in the evening when he's out, I can reach him wherever he is; and he can call us, as he must, before changing his plans.

I haven't given my cell number to anyone but family. I can't possibly get work-related calls on it. So I haven't learned to hate it, though I also rarely use it except for making free long-distance calls.

Cell phones also set Mr. Prim and me free to go out to dinner and/or a movie without getting a babysitter several years sooner than we might otherwise have done. Which means we actually did it.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Maria
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Post by Maria »

LM wrote:I also like the streamlined nature of our education system – we have no equivalent to College here.
Isn't "college" just another word for university? I don't think there's any actual difference, is there? :scratch:

Cell phones:
After a disagreement with the intractable company that runs the local "land lines" we got cell phones for the whole family and discontinued the two land lines. With shared minutes & free long distance, it's not much more than the two land lines + long distance charges were. Given that our kids drive old cars subject to breakdown at no notice, I really like the thought of cell phones for them, although I scold them when they call while driving.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

In the U.S. system a university consists of at least two colleges that are subdivisions (for example, the College of Arts and Sciences, the College of Engineering, and the College of Architecture).

A college can also be an institution of higher learning, usually a smaller one, that doesn't have these subdivisions.

But in either case the U.S. idiom is to "go to college"—we say "when I was in college," not "when I was at university," even if we did attend a university.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Maria wrote:
LM wrote:I also like the streamlined nature of our education system – we have no equivalent to College here.
Isn't "college" just another word for university? I don't think there's any actual difference, is there? :scratch:
I was under the impression that there was. You can go and do any degree you like from High School. I went from High School into Law School - I didn't think that that happened in the US.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Could you go and get a doctor of medicine in four years (i.e., become a licensed physician), straight out of high school, LM?

And how many years does law school take?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Primula_Baggins wrote:Could you go and get a doctor of medicine in four years (i.e., become a licensed physician), straight out of high school, LM?
A medical degree is five years here (and there are more years of prac above that). Still, you can go into med school straight out of High School – no point hanging around. My friend went straight into dentistry, for example.
Primula_Baggins wrote:And how many years does law school take?
A straight law degree takes three years. As I’m doing a degree in politics and public policy concurrently it’ll take me five years. I’ll graduate with both degrees at 21.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Wow, that is very different. I had no idea! Definitely efficient.

Of course, it may be easier to change course in the U.S. system, if you decide (say) that medicine is wrong for you and you'd rather study music. But maybe that's not a good thing. :P

My son will enter college with about a year of college course credit because he'll have his IB diploma. We won't make him finish in three years, but if he wants more than four, he's going to have to manage without our help.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

I have a British friend my age who's been a working PhD for close to 5 years. I kind of hate her. :P For most people in the US, getting a doctorate means four years of ordinary college plus 5+ years going to grad school and writing a thesis. Unless you're very driven and don't get distracted by little things like real life, you're lucky to be out of school and working by 30. By that time you're probably in debt past your eyeballs and in a race against time if you're single and want a family, or being threatend with divorce if you're married. And unless your degree is in something highly practical, your job prospects are probably poor. Not a good system at all. I should have my Master's degree by the end of the year, and I'm stopping there.
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Túrin Turambar
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

As politically incorrect as it sounds, I have reason to believe that the US High School system is part of the problem. I knew a girl who went to the US for half a year as an exchange student, and she reported that the grades there were some two or three years behind the grades here. We, in turn, are a couple of years behind grades in countries like Japan IIRC.

That being said, we’re going down a similar path. Since they stopped holding students who fail back a grade there’s an increasing number of functional illiterates getting to High School level, and since they stopped sensible teaching methods in favour of bizarre politically correct postmodernism quite often a lot of what the students are learning is useless anyway. Fortunately, there’s a big push to change things back to how they were, which should fix things. Maybe electing some conservative state Governments might help (all of the six states and two territories have Labor Governments despite the popularity of the Federal Coalition Government. Go figure).
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

As politically incorrect as it sounds, I have reason to believe that the US High School system is part of the problem.
Lord M, I don't think that sounds politically incorrect, just truthful.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Yes, the situation in the US high schools is very difficult. I am currently teaching 9th graders [14 yrs old] the same things they learned last year....and they constantly tell me that. And yet...they do not do well on classwork or quizzes! It is very hard....

But it is a very big problem to fix....
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

In the grand scheme of things, is it actually possible to teach 14 year olds anything? In a classroom?
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Without a baseball bat?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Dave_LF
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Post by Dave_LF »

axordil wrote:In the grand scheme of things, is it actually possible to teach 14 year olds anything? In a classroom?
14 works out to 8th or 9th grade in the US; I can certainly still remember things I learned in school then. Basic algerbra and geometry, diagramming sentences, basic chemistry and physics, geology... I was always a good student and probably remember more than many, but I doubt I'm that unique... Or am I missing your point?
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Post by JewelSong »

Boy, are you behind the times, Prim.

A stun-gun is what you need.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I have known many 14-year-olds and lived with two (so far). It's not so much that they're ornery as that they're terribly distracted. Hormones, dreams of freedom and adulthood, frustration at what I remember as a particularly boring stretch of education that repeated a lot of what had come before (and it's perfectly possible to be a terrible student when you're simply bored out of your mind), complicated and shifting social relationships. . . .

The baseball bat is for occasionally slamming on the desk.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

My memories of grades 7 and 8 are that they were complete and utter wastes of time for everyone except those with Attention Excess Disorder. The hormones certainly didn't help, but the real enemy was the lack of challenge.

In my district, after you learned to read and to do fractions, you spent the next FIVE YEARS washing, rinsing, and repeating. Grade nine had some relief with the introduction of algebra. Grade ten was where actual high school began, with honest chemistry, geometry, foreign languages other than French or Spanish, and history classes that were more than lists of dates.

But grades four to eight inclusive were a wash. And by the last of those years I was bordeline psychopathic from the boredom.
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