Norwegian Terrorism

Post by **Ghân-buri-Ghân** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:31 pm

There has been a huge bombing in Oslo, and a subsequent mass shooting on a small island on the Tyrifjorden lake, just outside the Norwegian capital. At least 17 people have died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14256712

It is a tragedy.

Yet there are questions to be raised regarding the media coverage of this despicable act. Immediately, the "talking heads" were blaming al qaeda, pointing out similarities in the modus operandi to other events, and pontificating on the distorted reasoning and justification for Norway being a target of Islamic terrorism. From the start, the meme of the sub-human "them" was let loose.

And then... the gunman was arrested, and his description released:

Norwegian media reports said the shootings on the island, on the Tyrifjorden lake, were carried out by a man in police uniform.

Police later said that he was also linked with the bomb attack. Reports described him as tall and blond.

Not al qaeda it seems...

I wonder, will there now be a raft of racial stereotyping with blond men as existential threats? Somehow, I doubt it...

Post by **Holbytla** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:57 am

The same type of issue happened with the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City. There were unfortunate side effects and a hard lesson learned, or hopefully learned here anyway.

Yet in the end the true perpetrators were brought to "justice".

Is there a proclivity to accuse certain stereotypical people in certain situations? Yes there is. Is it fair? No, probably not.

Yet my money is on the Middle Eastern looking person as a more likely suspect to blow up an airplane or a government building in the US or any other democratic society.

Sue me for racial profiling. While it may be wrong and unfair, it is more likely accurate.

Motive isn't something easily discarded.

Post by **Lalaith** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:11 am

I heard about this this morning, and I'm absolutely shocked to hear the latest death toll--87!

What a tragedy!

And how horrific about the shooting at the camp with the youth.

Post by **vison** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:25 am

It is horrible. What on earth led the man to do it?

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:33 am

He's being questioned by police right now. Seems he might be a Far Right extremist and possibly visited extreme Christian fundamentalist websites. There is a Far Right minority nutcase presence in Scandinavia but it is very small. However, obviously small can be deadly.

.

Really impressed with the attitude and response of the Norwegian Prime Minister. Because it's a small country, population wise, and such a peaceful one, everyone will be affected by this national tragedy.

Terrible.

Post by **vison** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:21 pm

I have dozens of cousins in Norway and on my husband's side of the family there are dozens more. My youngest son keeps in touch with them. I wonder if he's heard anything.

Post by **Lalaith** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:32 pm

I haven't seen any posts by Sharky either.

Di, where did you read that he was a possible religious extremist? I hadn't seen that info anywhere. I had only heard a report that he had a problem with the Labor Party.

Post by **axordil** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:55 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world ... lo.html?hp

According to one source he also played World of Warcraft and made racist, xenophobic statements on the WoW forums.

The end of the article is disconcerting.

If he is convicted for the crimes under Norwegian law, Mr. Breivik would face a maximum sentence of 21 years, according to the police, meaning that unless he were found unfit for release for some reason he would be freed well before he turned 60. Norway abolished capital punishment in 1905.

Whether one supports capital punishment or not, someone who shoots 80+ kids at a camp should never walk free. One hopes they can find him "unfit for release" until he's released in a box.

Post by **Lalaith** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:22 pm

Thanks, ax.

It sounds like they're still piecing it all together, but it seems likely that he was a religious extremist.

And I have to agree with you. This man should never walk free.

He took all of those precious lives.

Post by **River** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:54 pm

I've been reading that he was also a right-wing extremist. Norway's own Tim McVeigh.

My sister and her gf were just in Oslo. The gf should be home by now, though, and my sis in Israel.

Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:30 pm

Oh, now there is a safe place to be!

Post by **eborr** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:31 pm

All the security correspondants were rushing round to find Islamic terrorist links - Hoping that the tradgedy would fit in with their theories

I just hate these journalists, they are like vultures feeding on the corpses of the dead.

Post by **vison** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:42 pm

eborr wrote:All the security correspondants were rushing round to find Islamic terrorist links - Hoping that the tradgedy would fit in with their theories

I just hate these journalists, they are like vultures feeding on the corpses of the dead.

Come on, eborr. What else are they supposed to do?
Islamic terrorism is real. It exists. And one's mind leaps to the obvious. Why the hell wouldn't it?

Who would EVER have thought a Norwegian would do such a thing? No one. Now we know a Norwegian would.

But let up on the journalists and the people whose thoughts turned to Islamists.

No one wants to think one of their own could do this.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:08 pm

Lalaith wrote:I haven't seen any posts by Sharky either.

Di, where did you read that he was a possible religious extremist? I hadn't seen that info anywhere. I had only heard a report that he had a problem with the Labor Party.

BBC news interviewed Norwegian police who said that the guy himself described himself as a 'Christian fundamentalist'. He was also a Freemason.

There are minority Far Right groups in Scandinavia - Stieg Larsson, the author of the Millennium Trilogy, investigated these groups when he was alive - but never before such an atrocious act of violence.

And I agree: someone who murders over 80 people should get life without parole.

Post by **axordil** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:41 am

the guy himself described himself as a 'Christian fundamentalist.' He was also a Freemason

This rather suggests he was neither, really. The philosophies are not strictly compatible.

Post by **Lalaith** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:29 am

I read something about Marxism, too. That also makes me question his driving ideology. Perhaps, he's just plain nuts. (Well, in fact, I'd bet money that he's insane.)

ETA: Of course, now I'm thinking that I can't remember whether the article said he visited sites for Marxism or against.

So, um, never mind. That may be a completely irrelevant point...or it may be a salient one. You never know with me.

Post by **vison** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:14 am

My son has heard from some of the guys he met there last year when he was over there going to pistol matches around Scandanvia and Czech. These guys are mostly military/reservists/police officers. They are all devastated and bewildered.

I don't know. It's so awful you can't bear to think about it.

Post by **eborr** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:52 am

vison wrote: Come on, eborr. What else are they supposed to do?
Islamic terrorism is real. It exists. And one's mind leaps to the obvious. Why the hell wouldn't it?

Who would EVER have thought a Norwegian would do such a thing? No one. Now we know a Norwegian would.

But let up on the journalists and the people whose thoughts turned to Islamists.

No one wants to think one of their own could do this.

The commkentary I was referring to came not from the Norwegians, but from UK and US commentators making reports. don't want to claim some special foresight, but my take straight away was that it was some kind of right-wing maniac, my chain of reasoning ran as follows.

1. Although Norway is an active member of NATO, it is one of the most pro-Islamic countries in the west. For many years it has actively campainged on behalf of the palestinians and provided safe refuge.

2. According to a number of business associates I worked with they had concerns over the young people in extreme right wing movements in the country, although the concerns were generally manifest over low level violent activities.

3. Whilst peopel of all ethnic origins are visible in Norway, a non-Caucasian police manwould have aroused suspicion.

4 The modus operandi for the explosions was wrong for "Islamic" terrorists.

5. There is nothing the right wing hates more than a succesful pluralist social democracy, so lets go to the heart of it.

In the aftermath of this terrible tradgedy with all of those young idealistic people being killed, the sight and sound of these commentators pronouncing their judgements to fill the belly of the insatiable 24 hour news beast was awful.

At such time the most I want is facts, or perhaps the opinions of those are involved.Contrast the journalist speculation with the measured response coming from the Norwgians themselves.

Post by **eborr** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:57 am

Post by **nerdanel** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:09 am

vison wrote:Come on, eborr. What else are they supposed to do?
Islamic terrorism is real. It exists. And one's mind leaps to the obvious. Why the hell wouldn't it?

Because no one group has a monopoly on acts of mass violence. That, and only that, is the obvious. From this Norwegian to Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Jared Loughner, Eric Harris, and Dylan Klebold (with apologies for not listing out relevant Canadians/Brits, but I'm sure you guys could do that), it is absolutely unclear to me why white Westerners believe they have any standing to assume that one of their own would never do such a thing. To anyone laboring under this delusion, let me assure you it is just that: a delusion. The only obvious thing is that white Westerners are frequently behind acts of mass violence, and that it is not only minorities - whether racial or religious - who do such things.

I have some Jewish friends who feel similarly about their own ethnic/religious group: that Jews would never commit egregious acts of violence against innocents in peacetime. Violent murders were, apparently, reserved to other, less morally superior groups. And then this month brought this - an eight-year-old boy violently murdered in New York by one Levi Aron, an Orthodox Jew.

My point is this: any group who is laboring under the delusion that they have somehow managed to exclude all people who commit acts of extreme violence from their chosen or born national, ethnic, or religious group is likely to be in for a rude awakening.

No one wants to think one of their own could do this.

Again: whomever you are, whatever groups to which you belong...let me break it to you: one of your own could do this.