The press hits a new low -could this be the end of the road

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
User avatar
Ghân-buri-Ghân
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Evading prying eyes

Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

Lalaith wrote:(I'm refraining from commenting on the generalized police officer disparaging that was going on upthread. Not worth raising my blood pressure over. :x )
I am so glad you refrained from commenting... :D

I think Lord Acton had it just about right, by observing that "Power tends to corrupt..."

The police have power and, unfortunately, I believe they are corrupted by it. A consequence of their humanity, perhaps...
tenebris lux
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46120
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

For everyone one police officer corrupted by power, there are dozens that are honest citizens daily risking their lives to protect and serve their communities, for relative peanuts.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
vison
Best friends forever
Posts: 11961
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:33 pm
Location: Over there.

Post by vison »

I believe I said at least twice that most police officers are decent men. I did not indulge in generalized disparaging of police officers.

And I also said that's not the issue.

Police forces around the world are as prone to corruption as any powerful entity. In this case, the upper echelons of the British police appear to have been influenced by both financial and political means. It is almost always in the interest of a police force to "obey" or at least overlook the wrongdoing of the government and also of powerful citizens.
Dig deeper.
User avatar
Lalaith
Lali Beag Bídeach
Posts: 15716
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:42 pm
Location: Rivendell

Post by Lalaith »

You're right, Ghân, I shouldn't have said even that comment.
Image
User avatar
Ghân-buri-Ghân
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Evading prying eyes

Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

Lalaith, I meant no offence with my whimsy. Apologies if such was caused.

vison, I think it is as much a generalisation tom say most police officers are decent men as it is to disparage; they are merely two sides of the same coin. Perhaps I am too cynical, but I have less faith in the "good" of people generally, and that includes the police. In point of fact, because the temptation to abuse power is so great, I have less faith in the police. But that is subjective on my part.

I agree with you wholeheartedly with your analysis of the current situation regarding the Metropolitan Police in the UK. They have, I believe, been shown to suffer from systemic corruption. This NotW hacking case is merely the latest in a long record of abuse of power. The establishment protects the establishment, and the role of the police is less to protect and serve the public, but to serve the elite and protect them from the public. This was the rationale behind Henry fielding's creation of the Bow Street Runners, and it is, beneath an egalitarian gloss, the rationale behind the police today.
tenebris lux
User avatar
vison
Best friends forever
Posts: 11961
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:33 pm
Location: Over there.

Post by vison »

All good points, Ghân-buri-Ghân.

Nonetheless, when you need a cop, you are glad to see a cop.

I think there are aspects of modern policing that should be separated from dealing with "crime". I'm not sure just how that could be done, but I think it's worth looking at.

And, of course, the "war on drugs" eats up huge, enormous, vast amounts of police time and taxpayer money. End that folly and you end a lot more.
Dig deeper.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
At the intersection of here and now
Posts: 46120
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Lalaith wrote:You're right, Ghân, I shouldn't have said even that comment.
I for one am glad you did. As Ghân would no doubt agree, it is important to have different perspectives represented.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:I think the major implications of this story are being missed here. "Sleazy journalists" is about as arresting a headline as "Dog bites man".
Well you may have missed them but direct references to the influences on the police and the implications thereof appeared in more than one of my posts.

The story has moved fast, with Murdoch and Son(s) offering as a sacrificial victim the News of the World (aka Sunday Filth).

The NOTW was quite an institution in the UK, it had been going for a number of years and it is the highest circulation English Language newspaper in the world.

This gives quite an interesting view of how the modern "corporate mind" works. I guess the logic goes something like this. Bad news has appeared about the News of the World, this has casued the brand to be damaged, what do you do with a severely damaged brand, you close it down and everything will be forgotten - it doesn't matter that peoples livelyhoods who work there will be directly harmed, many innocent people who pitched up for work and honourably worked hard.

At best this is a denial by the executives who oversaw the paper, the idea that it was some mystical force which was responsible for the immoral and illegal actions that took place, and by closing it down, as the sacrificial lamb, there actions or inactions are in some way absolved.

At worst it's a cynical view of how really dumb Joe Public is, perhaps reinforced by the focus group work undertaken by the readership, by removing the News of the World title from the streets Murdoch hopes to cut a canker which may havebeen predjudicial to his ability to buy BSkyB outright.

The press and to some extent the BBC are now perhaps unwittingly colluding in a piece of melodrama whereby the NOTW will print it's last ever edition, a really pathetic attempt to win some kind of sympathy, so that we can all well in a bit of nostalgia, as they conjur the vision of the old sheep dock, being let out on to the hill side for one last attempt to bring the flock in before the vet comes out to put the hopeless case down.

To move onto more intersting matters, yesterday Offcom the regulator of media took the almost unprecedent step of taking the initiative. They have written to various bodies, including select committees of both houses of parliament to remind them in their role of offering a "fit and proper person " judgement on everyone seeking to obtain a majority holding in national media.

Offcom is historically a re-active body, only coming into play during an acquisition, this time they have taken the view that the attempt by the current culture secretary James Hunt to pass the takeover of BSkyB on the nod is not proper and will be subject to their scruitiny.

Whilst the issue of the police being corrupted is important, what I think is more important about this sage is that it may break the power of Murdoch to behave with impunity, in a way that has bought the notion of democracy in the UK into question. Milliband is actually being brave enough to say things, and I paraphrase here, that politicians have for too long been scared of Murdoch, and it was the time for Parliament to assert it's independence. If that can happen then I have much more hope for the country, as it's one step along the road of removing power and influence from unelected partisan interests.

I have two further wishes, firstly that the trail of the coverup and the destruction of emails leads back to to the top of News International in the UK and we see the relevant people in the Dock.

Secondly this sequence of events hits Murdoch where it really hurts in his pockets. My understanding is that his busines empire is very highly leveraged and his success is very dependant on delivering on his promises to and reatining the goodwill of his bankers. Already they are taking a dim view of what has happened in the UK especially as it will affect his capability to take over BSkyB.

Of course it would be wholly improper for one to suggest the fact that Rupe is deeply in hock to the bankers, has any baring on the coverage he offers regarding the causes and responsibility for the banking crisis, nor the apparent lack of criticism of a state of affairs, whereby most of the western world is suffering finanacially whilst the banks are back to making profit.
ToshoftheWuffingas
Posts: 1579
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:34 pm

Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

It has been reported that over a million e-mails have been deleted at News International since the beginning of the year.
<a><img></a>
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

lets hope that someone has kept the back-up tapes !
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

Newspapers today are detailing the steps that Murdoch is taking to distance his organisation from the NOTW problems.

He has got two top US lawyers working on the issue, who strike me as pretty unsavoury characters, one of them was instrumental in putting together the Patriot Act, and the other represented the US Govt in the anti-Microsoft legislation. No doubt the history and ethical basis for the patriot act has been discussed if not here then in other places at legnth, however the case against Microoft always struck me as odd, given than the folks lobbying for it had in the pre-Micrsoft days formed one of the most restrictive cartels operating.

I think you can make a pretty cogent case, to state that without Microsoft, real computing as opposed to gaming consoles would never have been brought into the financial reach of most home users and many small businesses.

So Roope has gottten together some like-minded spirits, who will use are prepared to use all their power and knowledge in the service of narrow common interest and avarice no matter what cost to the common weal - it was ever thus I guess
User avatar
Ghân-buri-Ghân
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Evading prying eyes

Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

eborr wrote:
Ghân-buri-Ghân wrote:I think the major implications of this story are being missed here. "Sleazy journalists" is about as arresting a headline as "Dog bites man".
Well you may have missed them but direct references to the influences on the police and the implications thereof appeared in more than one of my posts.
Again, I do not believe it is the influence of Murdoch et al on the police that is the major implication, but the complicity of the police as partners in corruption. There is a cosy clique including the media, politicians, judiciary and police that fatally undermines the institutions that supposedly embody a "just" British society. The crocodile tears of those involved aptly illustrate the rush to scapegoat, and far better journalists than the most cancerous culprits, the executive and its enforcers, the police.
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Lalaith wrote:You're right, Ghân, I shouldn't have said even that comment.
I for one am glad you did. As Ghân would no doubt agree, it is important to have different perspectives represented.
Most definitely!
tenebris lux
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

From the New York Times
In truth, a kind of British Spring is under way, now that the News Corporation’s tidy system of punishment and reward has crumbled. Members of Parliament, no longer fearful of retribution in Mr. Murdoch’s tabloids, are speaking their minds and giving voice to the anger of their constituents. Meanwhile, social media has roamed wild and free across the story, punching a hole in the tiny clubhouse that had been running the country. Democracy, aided by sunlight, has broken out in Britain.
User avatar
Primula Baggins
Living in hope
Posts: 40005
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Contact:

Post by Primula Baggins »

Gratifying. I hope it continues.

Last night Mr. Prim and I enjoyed a bit of coincidental commentary: a sketch in the last episode of series 3 of A Bit of Fry and Laurie (available streaming on Netflix in the USA). It was a version of It's a Wonderful Life in which a media mogul named Rupert was shown by an angel what the world would be like if he had never been born. Painfully funny.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
User avatar
Dave_LF
Wrong within normal parameters
Posts: 6806
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:59 am
Location: The other side of Michigan

Post by Dave_LF »

Primula Baggins wrote:Last night Mr. Prim and I enjoyed a bit of coincidental commentary: a sketch in the last episode of series 3 of A Bit of Fry and Laurie (available streaming on Netflix in the USA). It was a version of It's a Wonderful Life in which a media mogul named Rupert was shown by an angel what the world would be like if he had never been born. Painfully funny.
I saw that just a couple of days ago too, and also thought of this incident. Weird. :shock:
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

The story has moved on an up, The Met Police Commisioner, the most powerful operational police officer has resigned over his appointment of an News International Manager as a PR consultant, Rebekah Brooks the until Friday the MD of News International UK has been arrested and was questioned for 12 hours, this opens the way now for a warrant for James Murdoch, who signed cheques for £1.8 million to hush people up. Murdoch claims he didn't know what the cheques were for.

Incidently there is a close similarity between the action of the Met Police Chief and David Cameron over their appointment of senior staff who have been found to be implicated in the alledged cover-up.

Camerons position may become untenable
User avatar
Túrin Turambar
Posts: 6153
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Post by Túrin Turambar »

I would be honestly surprised if this went so far as to do long-term political damage to the government.
User avatar
Ghân-buri-Ghân
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Evading prying eyes

Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

eborr wrote:The story has moved on an up, The Met Police Commisioner, the most powerful operational police officer has resigned over his appointment of an News International Manager as a PR consultant, Rebekah Brooks the until Friday the MD of News International UK has been arrested and was questioned for 12 hours, this opens the way now for a warrant for James Murdoch, who signed cheques for £1.8 million to hush people up. Murdoch claims he didn't know what the cheques were for.

Incidently there is a close similarity between the action of the Met Police Chief and David Cameron over their appointment of senior staff who have been found to be implicated in the alledged cover-up.

Camerons position may become untenable
As pointed out, the police have been up to their necks in corruption. The arrest of Rebekah Brooks has been cynically timed, as now that she is out on police bail, she will be far less likely to speak freely in front of the Parliamentary Committee, using the defence of not self incriminating, and will thus also be far less likely to incriminate the police, and Cameron.

The wagons are being circled...

PS

And more proof of the cancer reaching the highest echelons of the police, after the resignation of Stephenson, his deputy, assistant commissioner John Yates, has followed suit.

The London Mayor, Boris Johnson, already recognised as a bit of a buffoon, should be regreting his statements last year that this hacking business was "a load of codswallop", blown up by the Labour Party.

It's fun to see the Establishment squirm a little, no matter that it will be fleeting, and before we know it, business as usual will resume. Right now, the "Conspiracy Theorists" would appear to have Occam's Razor on their side. I wonder if that will sway the opinions of the usual suspects who habitually site Occam's Razor in order to ridicule the CTers? No... that would be too much to expect... :D
tenebris lux
User avatar
eborr
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:36 am

Post by eborr »

It already has damaged the condems, it gave the libs a chance of honourably withdrawing from the govt, perhaps the only opportunity they have to save their reputation/ Cameron didn't call their bluff and agreed to the judicial review, thinking it would buy him time, but events are going apace.

Ghân, I take a different view of the arrest, it makes no difference to the Wade refusing to answer questions before the committee, once the police had asked her to come and answer questions, she always has the option of refusing to answer select committees questions as they might predjudice the police question.

The Met is hurting and they blame News International for this, they are getting their revenge in Wade is the first baby Murdoch will follow soon after, even is there is nothing they can pin on him, and they don't much like Govt policies which are reducing police numbers and pay, don't be surprised if they have a dig at the Govt now
User avatar
Ghân-buri-Ghân
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Evading prying eyes

Post by Ghân-buri-Ghân »

How has it hurt the "condems" eborr? Latest opinion polls have Labour slipping behind the Tories, and the Lib Dems strengthening...

And, yes, Rebekah Wade always had the option of not answering the commitee, but now that she is on bail, her not answering will have greater apparent justification.
tenebris lux
Post Reply