Animal Suffering and Human Suffering

[Sassafras]

Note, this discussion was split off from a thread in Tol Eressëa - Understanding Suffering - VtF

Oh Di, I am sorry you had to see that poor tortured dog.

I can't stand to see images of cruelty to animals. I have to turn away because I can't cope with the emotions of their suffering. They feel such incomprehensible pain ... and I feel so powerless to prevent it.

And it makes me despise the majority of humans even more.

And I am even more afraid, you see, that we here, and those like us, truly are an infinitesimal minority.

What Voronwë said is laudable and worth believing.

Only it is so difficult to find the hope.

[Erunáme]

...

[MithLuin]

I am not very sensitive. I will flinch at stories (I guess in sympathy), and I certainly don't seek out grisly images. But... I don't really have a problem with such things, either. I don't know why that is.

I did not grow up with violence, though I did grow up on a farm. I've been to many funerals, but few were of people I was close to (my grandfather died when I was 6, so I was not old enough to really grieve him). I cried (once) when each of my pets died. I was most upset when my father had to shoot one of our dogs. He was actually very upset by that too, and said he'd never do it again (the vets weren't open, which is why we didn't put the animal down).

I have killed animals, but only small ones (a bat with a broom, a snake with a shovel). I did not enjoy it. I actually was sad that I had to do it. But, well - my family understandably doesn't appreciate bats in the house, and the snake looked dangerous to my Mom. It does not bother me that the meat I eat comes from slaughtered animals. But I don't like to hit even a butterfly with my car.

I do not understand what would cause people to step over the line - to take pleasure in causing pain, suffering and death. When my high school class went to visit the Holocaust Museum, I remember being very quiet (myself) on the bus ride home, and somewhat surprised that some of my classmates were chatting normally. So, I guess everyone deals with it on different levels, and in different ways. [My friend and I chatted and made scones after watching The Passion for the first time, so I guess I've done that, too.] The school brought in a rabbi to speak to us afterwards (about the experience), and I remember most of the questions were good - so people had been paying attention, and thinking about it. He made the point that all of us are capable of great evil, or, rather, if you 'scratch the surface' you'll find all sorts of horrible things. Who knows what I would have been okay with, had I been recruited by the Nazis? Luckily, I have not been put to the test....

I hope that all of us would show the courage that Jnyusa did, and not condone or participate in evil that we found 'accepted' or 'normal'. Hopefully, there will be people like Voronwë to work for justice and prevent minor (or major) evil from going unchecked. Hopefully, we will offer support and healing to those we come in contact with who have suffered.

But I think... I think that the real draw to causing pain or suffering or death is that it seems to give you so much power over someone (or something). Yes, this is very sick. But power is quite intoxicating, and people will do a lot to experience it. That's why they call it 'lust' for power, or being 'power-hungry'... basic needs, that go straight to the gut.

This is why detachment is a good thing! You want to detach yourself from such ugly, twisted, sick things. Granted, I don't think anyone here is remotely tempted to do anything like that. But we all do have temptations of some sort, and a darker side (even if that just means we can be a bit selfish about some things).

But detachment from others' suffering seems just as sick. When I went to Dachau, I was able to walk through the (small) gas chamber they had there. They assured us it wasn't really used that much, but still, I have no doubt that someone died there. And yet...walking through, I was not thinking of their suffering, but rather sizing up the room, taking note of the doors that could seal....in short, studying how the stupid contraption worked! Yes, I am an engineer, but there was no need to go off on that tangent. It bothered me. I don't think that kind of detachment is good, or healthy. It just lets you be callous and uncaring.

Much better to get the nasty shock, and know that you are still human.

[samaranth]

I cannot understand the impulses which would cause someone to inflict such harm on a defenceless animal, or human being. However, the suffering itself is all to easy to understand, and it's the absence of that ability to feel sympathy which characterises the perpetrators.

There is detachment, and then there's detachment, Mithluin. Occasionally it's a way of defending yourself from feeling too much (rather than nothing at all.) It can give you time to process the facts and impressions that you are being bombarded with. I spend some part of my working life dealing with images of child abuse, and I have had to learn to detach or I would go mad. It doesn't stop the sorrow, or the anger (or even being haunted by some images) but I try to channel that to making sure that my little part in stopping such things happening again is done properly.

Di

As Hobby said, just reading everyone's response to this question does provide a wonderful reminder of the great good there also is in the world.

[Pearly Di]

What samaranth said, Mithluin Your detachment was simply a way of coping with the grim place you were walking through.

Thanks, Sam.

[vison]

And it makes me despise the majority of humans even more.

And I am even more afraid, you see, that we here, and those like us, truly are an infinitesimal minority.

I see the exact opposite.

I also see it as dangerous to "despise the majority of humans". There can come no good from despising ourselves.

Ordinary decent people surround us all. If that wasn't true, the world would be one vast killing ground.

[yovargas]

Was thinking the same thing, vison.


I've found it strange and disturbing for some time that so many people seem more affected by animal suffering (specially cute animals!) than human suffering. I don't know what it signifies but whatever it is, it does not feel right to me.

[Erunáme]

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[anthriel]

Well, I'm not sure that seeing either type of suffering is something I can endure, yov. But there's something about people torturing something that is defenseless that invokes some other level of indignation and protest in me.

If two guys (or gals) are duking it out in a bar, and one gets knocked out, and the winner goes up and gets in a couple of free kicks to the gut on the unlucky loser, I suppose that is torture. Certainly excessively violent. Not good.

But the loser was choosing to fight in the first place. Y'know? And with adrenaline pumping, the winner indulging in a little extra violence is... well, adrenaline, I suppose. It sucks, and it's wrong, but it is somewhat... I dunno, understandable. For whatever reason, it would make me cringe, but it wouldn't make me crazy.

If someone deliberately chooses to torture a child, or an elderly person, or an animal, or something chosen simply because it can't fight back, there is a tinge of evil in that action that concurrently turns my stomach AND makes me fly to the defence of the victim. There is some sick sadistic pleasure taken out of the utter power to simply inflict pain and death that is outside the range of normal behaviours. Or at least any normal behaviour I can wrap my mind around.

And it's not that I think animals are so one dimensional that they are ALWAYS cute, fuzzy widdle sweetums to be protected. If a wolf were trying to attack my dog, I would shoot it dead, if I had the chance. I don't care if they're endangered, or if it's not the wolf's fault, or if he's just being a wolf, or any of that jazz. If he is trying to hurt my dog, he's as dead as I can make him.

I just wouldn't enjoy it.

[vison]

I doubt very much that you would find many people beyond our little group here who would not feel just as we all do. I don't have such a low opinion of my fellow humans.

Deliberate cruelty is a vile thing, whether it be perpetrated on animals or people. Yet I believe that MOST of those who act that way were cruelly treated themselves.

To set ourselves apart --- and on a "higher" moral plane than everyone else -- is a dangerous thing. It is that very ability to set oneself apart that leads to trouble in the first place. If you can't recognize yourself in "the other", what are you saying?

[Erunáme]

...

[vison]

Excuse? No. Reason? Yes.

There is a difference.

"Acceptance" does not imply approval or liking. It is simply knowledge.

Some knowledge is hard to internalize, hard to "take".

[Sassafras]

I doubt very much that you would find many people beyond our little group here who would not feel just as we all do. I don't have such a low opinion of my fellow humans.

Well I do. And unless you are making a value judgement on the discrepancy between our views .... then we shall just have to accept the fact that we hold differing opinions on the human species.

Deliberate cruelty is a vile thing, whether it be perpetrated on animals or people. Yet I believe that MOST of those who act that way were cruelly treated themselves.

And? Explaining the reason behind such cruelty does not diminish the emotional impact. Even though I understand the motivating cause behind the effect, that effect is not mitigated. At least not for me. I'm obviously not understanding you properly because I don't see the relevance of that second sentence.

To set ourselves apart --- and on a "higher" moral plane than everyone else -- is a dangerous thing. It is that very ability to set oneself apart that leads to trouble in the first place. If you can't recognize yourself in "the other", what are you saying?

I'm sorry. What is the basis for this statement? Are you making an assumption that because I have no great love for my fellow man I must therefore set myself on a higher moral plane? A dubious assertion at best. Of course I can recognize myself in 'the other'. I'm capable of great cruelty and, to my shame, have inflicted it in the past. And given the right set of circumstances I believe I am still capable of it.

[vison]

We obviously differ and there seems little use in my asserting, "Oh, but most people are decent" and you asserting, "I don't think so."

My experience has been that most people are decent.

I also stand by my comment that most who act cruelly were once cruelly treated. Does it remove responsibility? No, of course not. It might explain the action, though.

There will be no end to cruelty until all children are brought up free of it. And even then, who knows? Still, I think that if I try to understand why, I might, in some way, begin to help effect an end to it.

At any rate, this isn't an "argument", but a discussion.

This is a bit of a sore topic with me today. Because I am thinking of a child named Jeffrey who died in Ontario last year, starved to death by his grandmother. It is very easy for me to loathe that woman, to judge her actions as being vile. She deserves, I suppose, whatever penalty the law requires. But I am interested to know why this woman was capable of doing such a terrible thing. Was she merely "born evil"? Did something shape her to evil? Could it have been prevented? Are there children growing up now who will be like her and nothing can change that outcome? Had Jeffrey survived, what would he have become?

Could I have starved a child to death? I don't think so. Why am I different than she is? Or, more to the point, why is she different from me?

[yovargas]

*concurs with vison some more*

I think it's extremely relevant to this discusion whether evil in people is their by nature or nurture. It weighs heavily on the matter of humanity's worth (as a human, I'd say humanity's worth is pretty darn high).


And, putting aside our capacity for nastiness, are we really worse than most of the world's creatures? I'd say we're far far better, at least in that regard.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And, putting aside our capacity for nastiness, are we really worse than most of the world's creatures? I'd say we're far far better, at least in that regard.

I'm afraid I am with Sassy here. No other creature kills millions of its own kind, drives hundreds of other species into extinction, threatens to blow up the planet, or destroys the environment.

But perhaps this should be subject of a different thread?

[MithLuin]

Could I have starved a child to death? I don't think so. Why am I different than she is? Or, more to the point, why is she different from me?

Oh, I don't know about that.

I've certainly hit a child, and even strangled a child (not to death or unconciousness!)

How could I do such a horrible thing?

Easy. These 'children' were my little brothers, and they could be quite a nuisance to babysit

I think it is easy for caretakers of children to get overwhelmed. I don't condone beating or starving them. But I would guess that the people who ought to be responsible adults don't know how to deal with the situation, and so lash out violently. After all, I only hit people because I am angry, or because they hurt me, or something. It's an emotional response.

Not the right one, and certainly one that I curb all the time! After all, I certainly can't hit the students I work with .

I still don't know how a woman could starve a child. That is beyond my comprehension. Bad enough for mothers in poverty to have to watch their children go hungry, let alone to do it on purpose! But I wonder what she thinks of what she did? That there was no choice, that she 'had' to do it that way....if so, that would be very, very sad. Or, did she enjoy watching the child become weak and helpless, unable to fight back? That would be much sicker, and I can't wrap my mind around why someone would keep that up.


** Warning ** - next paragraph has graphic details.

I guess that story hit me, because the same thing happened here, a few years ago. The girl was maybe 15 years old, and her grandmother kept her locked in her room and beat her (for months) until eventually the girl starved to death. (I am sorry...I realize this thread was started by people who said they were sensitive to these things, and here I am dragging up all sorts of unpleasant stories (with details)).


vison, I don't think all of these cases are 'just' because children were treated badly. I think human nature has the capacity to stoop to all new lows. Someone who experienced a loving home could still 'go bad' - this happens all the time, too. Drugs (and other addictions) are notorious for making a normally-good person transform into a criminal. Of course, that doesn't mean that there isn't a cycle of abuse - there is. There are just lots of different ways to go wrong, I guess...

yov, I understand why the talk of animal cruelty makes you uncomfortable. I think it is horrible to torture animals, of course. But when my high school class went to the Holocaust Museum, one of the girls came back all upset that the Nazis killed horses.

I kid you not. I was like, did you miss the point? While it is certainly sad that they killed the little girl's horse, they killed the little girl, too! This is what got me.

So, I am fine with being outraged over doing horrible things to animals. I think it is wrong to mistreat animals, or even to just neglect them a little bit. I mean, you should be responsible for your pets (or livestock). It is good to take good care of them, and treat them decently. But I am not okay with being outraged over treatment to animals but at the same time being blase towards human suffering. That, to me, would be uncaring, inhumane. I don't think anyone here is doing that. We started off talking about human suffering, and only brought in animals when people said 'how could anyone do that?' You don't have to like it, of course, but I think it is better, in context.

And I know that studying the 'mechanism' of torture and death is just a coping mechanism, so I didn't have to think about what it was really for. But...if I can do it to 'cope'....then I could do it to, say, design one of the blasted things. That is what was scary. If I can detach so that I don't have to bear the full brunt of being a witness, how is that any different from detaching so I won't have to bear the full brunt of being a participant? I'd rather take in the shock, and know that I am not in the process of becoming a monster. It is easy to recognize that the Nazis were evil. I was taught this since I was a young child. They are villains in all the movies. Their colors were red and black! But....what happens when someone who looks more inocuous tries to recruit me?

[yovargas]

And, putting aside our capacity for nastiness, are we really worse than most of the world's creatures? I'd say we're far far better, at least in that regard.

I'm afraid I am with Sassy here. No other creature kills millions of its own kind, drives hundreds of other species into extinction, threatens to blow up the planet, or destroys the environment.

Which is why I emphasized capacity. If other animals had the same capacity for destruction we do, would they think twice about using it? At least we can think twice about it! (And do - thus these discussions.)

eta:

yov, I understand why the talk of animal cruelty makes you uncomfortable. I think it is horrible to torture animals, of course. But when my high school class went to the Holocaust Museum, one of the girls came back all upset that the Nazis killed horses.

Yes, that's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. From my perspective, this kind of mentality is deeply immoral. Hope that's not offensive but I stand by the statement.

[JewelSong]

I think human nature has the capacity to stoop to all new lows.

I believe this as well. I believe that some people have ceased to be "human" at all and have somehow descended into a "sub-human" category. (I will not say "like an animal" because animals do not have the capacity for torture or cruelty.) These people epitomize evil; they are no longer "one of us."

However! Conversely, I also believe that some people can rise above their "human-ness" to become MORE than human; to become closer to the Great Divine. These people may not be "one of us" any longer either, but in a different way.

Humans can descend or we can rise. Most of us stay human, in one way or another.

[Erunáme]

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