Shooting of Congresswoman in Tucson

[Primula Baggins]

I think you can be sure you have helped avert bad things, Narya. I'm very glad you're doing what you do.

[eborr]

Infidel you are the first person to ever actually post how a civillian having a gun could stop someone. Every other time people people have brought up that argument (even on the news) no brings up incidents like these. So thank you.

In the case of the Tuscon incident there really wasn't time to retreive a weapon. Since there were only 2 cases of rescuing I still am not big on people carrying weapons, at the very least not weapons that as Cerin said fire that many bullets that fast.

Just to build on this point a little. On a per capita basis there are more people killed by accidental discharges and other unitended events in the US than there are gun murders in the UK. Looks to me entirely damming evidence against the "We can defend ourselves lobby" Having spent time being formally trained in a whole range of weapons, from rifles through to tank main weapon it scares me silly to think of guns in the hands of a scared, or worse andrenalin fuelled novice

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As is so often the case, Jon Stewart expresses my views very well:

STEWART: It's hard to know what to say. The events this weekend in Arizona weigh heavily. Sadly, it is a feeling that this country has experienced all too often and unfortunately for our show, the closer that we have gotten towards discussing and dealing with current events the harder it becomes in situations where reality is truly sad.

So here we are again, stunned by a tragedy. We've been visited by this demon before. Our hearts go out to those injured or killed and their loved ones. How do you make sense of these types of senseless situations is really the question that seems to be on everybody's mind. I don't know that there's a way to make sense of this sort of thing. As I watched the political pundit world, many are reflecting and grieving and trying to figure things out. But it's definitely true that others are working feverishly to find the tidbit or two that will exonerate their side from blame or implicate the other. Watching that is as predictable, I think, as it is dispiriting. Did the toxic political environment cause this? A graphic image here, an ill-timed comment, violent rhetoric, those types of things. I have no ****ing idea.

I wouldn't blame our political rhetoric any more than I would blame heavy metal music for Columbine...and that is coming from somebody who truly hates our political environment.

It is toxic. It is unproductive. But to say that that is what has caused this or that the people in that are responsible for this...I don't think you could do it...you cannot outsmart crazy. You don't know what a troubled mind will get caught on.

I do think it's important to watch our rhetoric. I think it's a worthwhile goal not to conflate our political opponents with enemies if for no other reason than to draw a better distinction between the manifestos of paranoid madmen and what passes for acceptable political and pundit speak. It would be really nice if the ramblings of crazy people didn't in any way resemble how we actually talk to each other on teevee.

I refuse to give in to that feeling of despair. There's light in this situation. I urge everyone: Read up about those who were hurt and or killed in this shooting. You will be comforted by just how much anonymous goodness there really is in the world. You read about these people and you realize that people that you don't even know, that you have never met, are leading lives of real dignity and goodness. And you hear about crazy, but it's rarer than you think. I think you'll find yourself even more impressed with Congresswoman Giffords and amazed about how much living the deceased packed into lives cut way too short. And if there is real solace in this, I think it's that for all the hyperbole and the vitriol that's become a part of our political process, when the reality of that rhetoric, when actions match the disturbing nature of words we haven't lost our capacity to be horrified. Please let us hope we never do. Let us hope we never become numb to what real horror, what the real blood of patriots looks like when it's spilled.

[narya]

what the real blood of patriots looks like when it's spilled.

Indeed, it takes a preponderance of these unknown day-to-day patriots to make this country what it is. Not just the heroes in the media. Why do they have to be dead for us to notice them?

[Dave_LF]

"That's a nothing part, captain."
"It's nothing 'til you don't got one."

[vison]

Jon Stewart expressed it very well.

As I said elsewhere: the current political atmosphere might have nothing to do with this tragedy, but the ugliness of it degrades America.

[Cerin]

As I said elsewhere: the current political atmosphere might have nothing to do with this tragedy, but the ugliness of it degrades America.

But of course it has to do with it; it must be the reason he targeted a lawmaker, and this particular lawmaker. He was steeped in bizarre political theories whose virulence and animus spring from hatred and fear of those who hold different views. This fear and hatred is deliberately cultivated by those who know better, to advance their own political causes. To refuse to recognize the connection between the current political atmosphere and the incident is, I believe, to willfully put blinders on.

[vison]

As I said elsewhere: the current political atmosphere might have nothing to do with this tragedy, but the ugliness of it degrades America.

But of course it has to do with it; it must be the reason he targeted a lawmaker, and this particular lawmaker. He was steeped in bizarre political theories whose virulence and animus spring from hatred and fear of those who hold different views. This fear and hatred is deliberately cultivated by those who know better, to advance their own political causes. To refuse to recognize the connection between the current political atmosphere and the incident is, I believe, to willfully put blinders on.

I am not convinced, Cerin.

[Cerin]

Very well. But you seem to be convinced it was not a political act of an unbalanced person affected by our extreme political atmosphere, and I don't quite understand the grounds for reaching that conclusion.

[axordil]

I am not convinced the political climate caused a crazy person to do something crazy. I am rather more convinced it had much to do with the shape and target of the craziness. It's very possible, even likely, this man would have committed some heinous act in any case. That it was a public political event, and not one of the other thousand places people gather together in easily targeted groups, says something about the focus of his insanity. That focus was political, and that's not random. It's in the air.

Now here's the thing: I don't think the political climate in question is unique to our lifetimes. There's a recurring nasty, violent streak in American politics we don't like to talk about: witness the events of 150 years ago. As Faulkner said, not only is the past not dead, it's not even past.

[Cerin]

I am not convinced the political climate caused a crazy person to do something crazy. I am rather more convinced it had much to do with the shape and target of the craziness. It's very possible, even likely, this man would have committed some heinous act in any case. That it was a public political event, and not one of the other thousand places people gather together in easily targeted groups, says something about the focus of his insanity. That focus was political, and that's not random.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. Being steeped in a virulent and extreme political atmosphere, as this man clearly was, could give a political focus to his insanity.

[vison]

I am not convinced the political climate caused a crazy person to do something crazy. I am rather more convinced it had much to do with the shape and target of the craziness. It's very possible, even likely, this man would have committed some heinous act in any case. That it was a public political event, and not one of the other thousand places people gather together in easily targeted groups, says something about the focus of his insanity. That focus was political, and that's not random.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. Being steeped in a virulent and extreme political atmosphere, as this man clearly was, could give a political focus to his insanity.

Yes.

If you are going to do something about the "power structure" then, you attack someone you see as being in that power structure. He might just as easily gone after Mr. McCain.

[Cerin]

Well, it depends on what his grievance was. Mr. McCain's political stances may not have represented the offense that the shooter saw in Gifford's politics. We may never know now, since he will have lawyers protecting his interests. There is no doubt in my mind that Giffords was shot because she is an agent of the government, just as the Oklahoma building was bombed because it was a government building. This insane person's insanity found expression in a political statement. We just don't know what statement he was making, in his own mind.

[Inanna]

Thanks for posting Jon Stewart's bit, V. He does express my thoughts rather well too.

[SirDennis]

Random thoughts:

Reagan and insanity aside, does it seem to anyone else that people on the left are more often the victims of this sort of act than those on the right?

Is violence against women political?

Padme wrote:

The girl was born on 9-11-01, or says Yahoo.

There is symbolism in this act no matter which way you look at it. We ignore the symbolism of our actions and the actions of others at our peril.

[Holbytla]

Is violence against women political?

It is if you consider Roe v Wade political, maybe, but mostly it is a negative trait passed on down through the ages.

[halplm]

Like millions of Americans I learned of the tragic events in Arizona on Saturday, and my heart broke for the innocent victims. No words can fill the hole left by the death of an innocent, but we do mourn for the victims’ families as we express our sympathy.

I agree with the sentiments shared yesterday at the beautiful Catholic mass held in honor of the victims. The mass will hopefully help begin a healing process for the families touched by this tragedy and for our country.

Our exceptional nation, so vibrant with ideas and the passionate exchange and debate of ideas, is a light to the rest of the world. Congresswoman Giffords and her constituents were exercising their right to exchange ideas that day, to celebrate our Republic’s core values and peacefully assemble to petition our government. It’s inexcusable and incomprehensible why a single evil man took the lives of peaceful citizens that day.

There is a bittersweet irony that the strength of the American spirit shines brightest in times of tragedy. We saw that in Arizona. We saw the tenacity of those clinging to life, the compassion of those who kept the victims alive, and the heroism of those who overpowered a deranged gunman.

Like many, I’ve spent the past few days reflecting on what happened and praying for guidance. After this shocking tragedy, I listened at first puzzled, then with concern, and now with sadness, to the irresponsible statements from people attempting to apportion blame for this terrible event.

President Reagan said, “We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle, not with law-abiding citizens who respectfully exercise their First Amendment rights at campaign rallies, not with those who proudly voted in the last election.

The last election was all about taking responsibility for our country’s future. President Obama and I may not agree on everything, but I know he would join me in affirming the health of our democratic process. Two years ago his party was victorious. Last November, the other party won. In both elections the will of the American people was heard, and the peaceful transition of power proved yet again the enduring strength of our Republic.

Vigorous and spirited public debates during elections are among our most cherished traditions. And after the election, we shake hands and get back to work, and often both sides find common ground back in D.C. and elsewhere. If you don’t like a person’s vision for the country, you’re free to debate that vision. If you don’t like their ideas, you’re free to propose better ideas. But, especially within hours of a tragedy unfolding, journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn. That is reprehensible.

There are those who claim political rhetoric is to blame for the despicable act of this deranged, apparently apolitical criminal. And they claim political debate has somehow gotten more heated just recently. But when was it less heated? Back in those “calm days” when political figures literally settled their differences with dueling pistols? In an ideal world all discourse would be civil and all disagreements cordial. But our Founding Fathers knew they weren’t designing a system for perfect men and women. If men and women were angels, there would be no need for government. Our Founders’ genius was to design a system that helped settle the inevitable conflicts caused by our imperfect passions in civil ways. So, we must condemn violence if our Republic is to endure.

As I said while campaigning for others last March in Arizona during a very heated primary race, “We know violence isn’t the answer. When we ‘take up our arms’, we’re talking about our vote.” Yes, our debates are full of passion, but we settle our political differences respectfully at the ballot box – as we did just two months ago, and as our Republic enables us to do again in the next election, and the next. That’s who we are as Americans and how we were meant to be. Public discourse and debate isn’t a sign of crisis, but of our enduring strength. It is part of why America is exceptional.

No one should be deterred from speaking up and speaking out in peaceful dissent, and we certainly must not be deterred by those who embrace evil and call it good. And we will not be stopped from celebrating the greatness of our country and our foundational freedoms by those who mock its greatness by being intolerant of differing opinion and seeking to muzzle dissent with shrill cries of imagined insults.

Just days before she was shot, Congresswoman Giffords read the First Amendment on the floor of the House. It was a beautiful moment and more than simply “symbolic,” as some claim, to have the Constitution read by our Congress. I am confident she knew that reading our sacred charter of liberty was more than just “symbolic.” But less than a week after Congresswoman Giffords reaffirmed our protected freedoms, another member of Congress announced that he would propose a law that would criminalize speech he found offensive.

It is in the hour when our values are challenged that we must remain resolved to protect those values. Recall how the events of 9-11 challenged our values and we had to fight the tendency to trade our freedoms for perceived security. And so it is today.

Let us honor those precious lives cut short in Tucson by praying for them and their families and by cherishing their memories. Let us pray for the full recovery of the wounded. And let us pray for our country. In times like this we need God’s guidance and the peace He provides. We need strength to not let the random acts of a criminal turn us against ourselves, or weaken our solid foundation, or provide a pretext to stifle debate.

America must be stronger than the evil we saw displayed last week. We are better than the mindless finger-pointing we endured in the wake of the tragedy. We will come out of this stronger and more united in our desire to peacefully engage in the great debates of our time, to respectfully embrace our differences in a positive manner, and to unite in the knowledge that, though our ideas may be different, we must all strive for a better future for our country. May God bless America.

- Sarah Palin

[Primula Baggins]

What "blood libel" actually means

To quote Josh Marshall at TPM:

Today has been set aside to honor the victims of the Tucson massacre. And Sarah Palin has apparently decided she's one of them.

[vison]

"It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”

He was speaking to women, too.

I don't "blame" Mrs. Palin for the events in Tucson. I am not convinced that she and her ilk really bear any responsibility for that. But evidently she thought she might be, otherwise why the rush to remove those crosshairs?

It is seldom that one reads, from a public figure, a statement so clueless, so self-absorbed. Usually they can fake it better than that. It's all about her.

Well, as I said elsewhere, she's shot herself in the foot, big time.

[yovargas]

The words I'd like to use to respond to that letter are not allowed on this board.