Redefining Illegality

[Jnyusa]

Yes, that's right, vison.

Two-thirds of the price of 'store-bought' food is packaging. Think what the cost of advertising does to the price of food.

What makes me grit my teeth is that fact that agriculture is still used in economic textbooks as the example of a perfectly competitive market, when in fact there are only two major ag product distributors (middlemen) that control something like 90% of the supply to the major food corporations. US Agriculture comes right behind diamonds in having the biggest monopoly squeeze at some point in the supply chain.

Government interference in this industry (in the US) has put tens of thousands of family farms out of business, wreaked environmental havoc, raised prices and taxes ... it's scandalous. The farmworker problem is just the tip of the iceberg lettuce.

Jn

[Cerin]

Regarding your previous post before this one, Jn, I agree with Imp, it was very understandable. Thanks!

Yes, it's awful what's been done to the American family farm (not that I understand the causes in the least).

[Ethel]

I try to do what I can to support local agriculture but it's not easy. In the summer there's the farmer's market - such lovely vegetables, fruit and meat. There is one shop in town that sells meat from a local organic rancher - it's not cheap, but it is excellent, and free of steroids and antibiotics.

But honestly - small farmers have been reduced almost to trading in a medieval style. The 'normal' distribution channels are stacked against them so they have to lug their wares to town on market day. (I daresay it's a pain for them, but it's a huge pleasure for me. I'm also very pleased with my employer for providing them with our parking lot for the market all summer.)

There's an organic farm in the area that offers 'subscriptions' - basically you pay for a season of fresh vegetables and they bring you a box of them every Thursday. (That happens in my employer's parking lot too.) I would love to subscribe, but it's designed for a family of 4 and it's just too much food for me.

I think it's mad what we've allowed to happen with agriculture. Big Agriculture is only 'more efficient' because of the way it is subsidized by all of us. The environmental costs alone will cause our grandchildren to curse us. I lived for years in the Central Valley of California, often proudly referred to as "the richest agricultural region in the world." It won't be true for much longer:

Desertification is a term used to describe when land becomes desert like because of humans activities. Desertification is happening in the Great Central Valley. The symptoms are: salty soil, erosion, gully formation, subsidence, and replacement of native vegetation by weeds. The causes are overgrazing, poor agricultural practices, ground water overdraft, and poor water management. If environmentally sound actions are not taken soon, California will turn into a desert wasteland much like the Fertile Crescent in the Tigris and the Euphrates valleys. They were once the richest ag. region in the world and are now salty wastelands.

[Dave_LF]

It kind of confouds me that, given all the abuses Americans seem prepared to tolerate, this is the issue that's got them taking to the streets.

I'm not confounded. People do tend to get more excited when their livelihood is threatened than when their liberties are.

That explains why immigrants are getting into it, but what about all the regular native-borns who are rallying in support of them? I guess I'm just surprised that so many non-immigrants care so much; but I suppose it's probably a bigger issue in the SW than it is up here in WI.

[Ethel]

It kind of confouds me that, given all the abuses Americans seem prepared to tolerate, this is the issue that's got them taking to the streets.

I'm not confounded. People do tend to get more excited when their livelihood is threatened than when their liberties are.

That explains why immigrants are getting into it, but what about all the regular native-borns who are rallying in support of them? I guess I'm just surprised that so many non-immigrants care so much; but I suppose it's probably a bigger issue in the SW than it is up here in WI.

It would be a mistake to underestimate how utterly entwined the lives of citizens and 'illegals' are in places like California; the businesses that would go under if immigration law were actually enforced. It's a crazy situation, but it is what it is. If immigration law were strictly enforced starting tomorrow, the economies in the border states would collapse.

So... change is needed, but we need to tread carefully.

[Dave_LF]

If immigration law were strictly enforced starting tomorrow, the economies in the border states would collapse.

Yeah. And I don't think they could do it, even if they wanted to. They'd have armed riots on their hands.

Edit: Please don't construe the above as a racist statement. But it is a fact that a lot of illegals who can't or won't integrate into US society turn to gangs, and a number of those gangs are large, organized, and heavily armed. They'd be a serious force to reckon with if they mobilized.

There's an organic farm in the area that offers 'subscriptions' - basically you pay for a season of fresh vegetables and they bring you a box of them every Thursday. (That happens in my employer's parking lot too.) I would love to subscribe, but it's designed for a family of 4 and it's just too much food for me.

I'm thinking of doing something like that this summer (my own efforts at gardening didn't turn out so well last year). It's too much food for me too, but I'm thinking I could store the extra...

[Primula Baggins]

Learn to can, Dave.

It's really easy and it saves a lot of food.

It's no use with greens (though you can blanch and freeze things like spinach), but if you have a pressure canner you can preserve all kinds of more solid vegetables. And you don't even need a pressure canner for more acid things like jam, fruit, and tomatoes—even salsa.

The "Ball Blue Book," for sale anywhere you can buy canning supplies, is great for canning and freezing recipes and techniques.

And that is one way past Big Agriculture.

(Try places like Goodwill or garage sales for canning jars—make sure they're not chipped. Lid rings it's better to buy new, and lids you have to buy new. But none of it is expensive, and everything but the lids can be used over and over.)

<resolves to build raised beds this year>

[Erunáme]

That explains why immigrants are getting into it, but what about all the regular native-borns who are rallying in support of them? I guess I'm just surprised that so many non-immigrants care so much; but I suppose it's probably a bigger issue in the SW than it is up here in WI.

I think it's because many of them are taking this issue in the wrong way. I get this impression from listening to all the protesters being interviewed. They're taking immigration reform as an attack on Mexicans. I keep hearing interviewees saying things like we've been here since the start of the country, etc...they seem to think the government's saying that it doesn't want Mexicans in the country at all. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding going on and that it's spreading like wildfire because it's such a sensitive misunderstanding.

An interesting comment from a protesting kid today. He said "If it weren't for Mexicans, y'all wouldn't have restaurants or nobody to wash your dishes". Wow, I wonder how the rest of the world gets by?

[vison]

Well, Eru, who WOULD wash dishes in the restaurants then?

It's not that I think there ought to be a blanket amnesty. I honestly don't know what the answer to all this is. And I don't mean to snipe at you, Eru. But the guy has a point.

It is painfully obvious that for a large part of the US, the standard of living enjoyed by "middle class" people is utterly dependent on the cheap labour of illegal immigrants. If the people doing that labour were "regular Americans", would they work for those wages and under those conditions? If they would, why aren't they doing it now?

[Erunáme]

Who washes dishes in communities that do not have a large hispanic population? Who washed dishes before many hispanics had immigrated to many areas of the country?

If the people doing that labour were "regular Americans", would they work for those wages and under those conditions? If they would, why aren't they doing it now?

It seems to me that once "regular Americans" were doing these jobs but with increased immigration, many employers have taken advantage of this and hired illegal immigrants so they could pay them less which has driven down the pay of these jobs.

[Dave_LF]

It seems to me that once "regular Americans" were doing these jobs but with increased immigration, many employers have taken advantage of this and hired illegal immigrants so they could pay them less which has driven down the pay of these jobs.

You're right, and it's also driven down the final cost of the product. Of course, rising insurance premiums have more than offset that in most cases. But either way, sending all the illegals home would lead to inflation in the food industry, janitorial services, hotels, and everywhere else illegals are employed in large numbers.

[vison]

Who washes dishes in communities that do not have a large hispanic population? Who washed dishes before many hispanics had immigrated to many areas of the country?

If you were to look in the kitchens of most restaurants, you would find immigrants. Chinese. Korean. Lebanese. Etc. Many of THEM illegal, too. Particularly in New York city and environs.

And before them, Irish, Italian, Greek, etc. Legal or illegal, such jobs are the traditional "first job". Only, if you're an illegal, it's a lot harder to move on and up.

Likewise the garment industry, to this very day, despite the fact that so much American clothing is made offshore. Where labour is even cheaper and standards even worse. . . .

[Ethel]

Likewise the garment industry, to this very day, despite the fact that so much American clothing is made offshore. Where labour is even cheaper and standards even worse. . . .

A lot of clothing that claims to be "made in the USA" is also made offshore in the worst possible working conditions. There are a number of US territories in Asia - most notably the Marianas and Marshall Islands - where clothing is produced under third world conditions and labeled "Made in USA".

Citizenship is a Good Thing.

[Jnyusa]

Dave: But either way, sending all the illegals home would lead to inflation in the food industry, janitorial services, hotels, and everywhere else illegals are employed in large numbers.

May I be insufferably technical for a moment?

That's not actually inflation. That's just a price hike in one (or more) industry(ies). There would be complementary price drops in other industries, and over time the prices in hotels, restaurants, etc. would also stabilize at lower levels due to changes in demand.

Technically, the price increase would only reverberate throughout the economy if the Fed or Treasury increased the money supply relative to the amount of product.

This is one of the things that makes economics counter-intuitive, because we're used to thinking of price increases as something bad. But prices are supposed to go up and down as the system adjusts to new conditions. For every price that goes down, there is some other price that has gone up. So the lower prices in the agricultural sector right now are offset by prices in some other industry which are higher than they would be if agriculture were to change.

What we should all curse, as wage earners and consumers, are the routine increases in the money supply. They are what cause all prices to rise, and then if you want to figure out whether you are winning or losing in the wage/price game, you have to be able to do calculus in your head.

That, by the way, is the main attraction of fueling economic growth by monetary expansion for TBTB.

Jn

[Erunáme]

Who washes dishes in communities that do not have a large hispanic population? Who washed dishes before many hispanics had immigrated to many areas of the country?

If you were to look in the kitchens of most restaurants, you would find immigrants. Chinese. Korean. Lebanese. Etc. Many of THEM illegal, too. Particularly in New York city and environs.

And before them, Irish, Italian, Greek, etc. Legal or illegal, such jobs are the traditional "first job". Only, if you're an illegal, it's a lot harder to move on and up.

I think you've missed what the boy was trying to say. He seemed to be implying that only Mexicans could/would fill those jobs. I very much disagree with this. I'm quite sure there are many smaller communities that do not have a large immigrant population. I'd be willing to be they have restaurants in which "regular ol' Americans" cook the food and wash the dishes.

[Ethel]

Who washes dishes in communities that do not have a large hispanic population? Who washed dishes before many hispanics had immigrated to many areas of the country?

If you were to look in the kitchens of most restaurants, you would find immigrants. Chinese. Korean. Lebanese. Etc. Many of THEM illegal, too. Particularly in New York city and environs.

And before them, Irish, Italian, Greek, etc. Legal or illegal, such jobs are the traditional "first job". Only, if you're an illegal, it's a lot harder to move on and up.

I think you've missed what the boy was trying to say. He seemed to be implying that only Mexicans could/would fill those jobs. I very much disagree with this. I'm quite sure there are many smaller communities that do not have a large immigrant population. I'd be willing to be they have restaurants in which "regular ol' Americans" cook the food and wash the dishes.

Yes, there is some truth to this. When my son and I moved from San Jose to Folsom (outside Sacramento) in California, one of the first things my son said was, "Everyone is white here!" Out of the mouths of babes and all. The people who took your order at MacDonald's were white high school kids. It was a different world!

But... have you been reading the thread on TORC (in Manwë) on this same topic? The most interesting thing in it is two staunch Republicans explaining that they employ illegal aliens (with false documents) because they cannot find anyone else to do the work. I think we discount that testimony at our peril.

[Erunáme]

Yes, there is some truth to this. When my son and I moved from San Jose to Folsom (outside Sacramento) in California, one of the first things my son said was, "Everyone is white here!" Out of the mouths of babes and all. The people who took your order at MacDonald's were white high school kids. It was a different world!

I know that feeling. I remember my first trip to Chicago...when I saw construction workers, very few of them were hispanic. Then when I went to England, the janitors in the airport were white. It was odd, especially coming from Texas.

But... have you been reading the thread on TORC (in Manwë) on this same topic? The most interesting thing in it is two staunch Republicans explaining that they employ illegal aliens (with false documents) because they cannot find anyone else to do the work. I think we discount that testimony at our peril.

No, I rarely go to TORC. I agree that "normal Americans" aren't generally applying for these jobs. I guess it's become expected that a hispanic will...plus the wage is bad. Most people are going to try for something where they can make more money. Your normal teenager is going to get a job serving or hosting instead of being in the back because there's more money there (not to mention they'd have a hard time communicating with the cooks/dishwasher that don't speak English). Unfortunately many immigrants are limited because they don't have the language skills to do more demanding jobs. It's sad that they are so limited and often considered stupid just because they can't speak English.

edit: A radio guy shown on NBC national news said something that I think is correct. He said that the issue right now is not about immigration in general but about the illegal aspect of it. Aside from your silly extremists, no one is saying they want to shut down immigration and want all hispanics out. They just want the illegal immigration cracked down on.

[Dave_LF]

Jn: technicality is always appreciated. What is the mechanism that forces price X down when price Y goes up and the money supply is held constant? Is it just that if food got more expensive, people would have less money for CDs so the music industry would have to lower its prices to keep people buying? What if savings rates changed?

[Jnyusa]

Dave: What is the mechanism that forces price X down when price Y goes up and the money supply is held constant? Is it just that if food got more expensive, people would have less money for CDs so the music industry would have to lower its prices to keep people buying? What if savings rates changed?

Yes. The part I've bolded is exactly right. The principle of the free market is that consumers ultimately determine what gets produced by changing their buying habits. Industries are supposed to go out of business if there is not sufficient demand at prices high enough to cover their supply costs.

If savings rate change, a long-term adjustment kicks in. But let me say first that savings rates tend to be fairly invariant.

What happens if people start to save a greater percentage of their income is that the multiplier effects do go down, but interest rates also go down because banks loan out those additional savings and now they have a larger supply of loanable funds.

They key, from a business point of view, is the relationship between expected revenues and expected cost. High savings rates translate into lower expected revenues but also lower cost, so the profit margin may not change, and that is what is of interest to business. Ultimately success always depends on consumer demand for your particular product relative to demand for everyone else's product. That is the meaning of competition.

This presumes a free market, of course - a market without price distortions. Something like illegal labor distorts prices, and there are other things that cause distortions too.

Ethel: The most interesting thing in it is two staunch Republicans explaining that they employ illegal aliens (with false documents) because they cannot find anyone else to do the work. I think we discount that testimony at our peril.

Well, I'm going to discount that testimony and not worry about the peril.

I bet those staunch Republicans worship the free market. I bet they want government to keep its nose out of their business. I bet they line up behind Bush I and Bush II in getting rid of environmental law and OSHA law, and in support of union busting.

Here's what' supposed to happen in a free market. If you can't get people to do that job at the wage you are offering, you offer a higher wage (or better benefits) until people are willing to do that job.

Oops! Can't get anyone to buy your product at the higher prices this will require? Boo-hoo. You're supposed to go out of business. The economy does not want you. Not under the agreed-upon terms of our social contract.

Republicans support a free market right up to the point where it requires their own extinction. Free markets routinely require the extinction of unwanted product. Demand changes. Live with it.

They're happy to give this advice to the people who lost their retirement savings in the Enron scandal or the IP bubble, or had their bank account drained by insider loans. Oops! Stock market adjustment. Too bad. It's a free market and you lose.

They're not so happy to take that advice themselves. If illegal immigrant labor is the only way to keep a business running, then that business should not exist. Not in a free market.

Jn

[yovargas]

If illegal immigrant labor is the only way to keep a business running, then that business should not exist. Not in a free market.

That post strikes me as extremely reasonable and therefore highly unlikely to happen.