Classics in school and education in general

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Túrin Turambar
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Classics in school and education in general

Post by Túrin Turambar »

This article has invoked a fair bit of discussion in the Australian blogosphere:
Culturally Adrift Without Classical Moorings

A return to Latin and ancient Greek would make for a real education revolution, writes Dan Ryan

MY grandfather, who spent most of his life on a sheep station in western Queensland, could quote tracts of Virgil and Homer from memory. My mother topped Latin in year 10 in her school in Brisbane in the 1960s, but things were on the slide; her prize was a copy of the Iliad not in Greek but in English, and in an abridged form, with all the poetry stripped away.

By the time I went to school there was apparently no need to teach the classics any more. They were dead languages and, besides, there was not enough time in the school day to fit them in between classes in home economics, woodwork, typing and the like. How sure are we that the effective elimination of the classics from our education system has been without consequence?

Educators once believed in the classical education very strongly. Little more than a generation ago you could not get into Oxford or Cambridge without demonstrating competency in Latin, and practically every Western historical figure and writer until the 1950s was taught the classics from an early age. The line of thinking that we don't need to learn Latin and Greek because they are too hard, irrelevant, not useful or not the languages of the future would have been regarded as the argument of philistines.

The rationale was not always stated explicitly; it was simply understood. A classical education was needed first of all to impart content -- to maintain basic Western cultural literacy. Your understanding of the West would be necessarily incomplete and superficial without a good acquaintance of the Aeneid, the works of Ovid and Aeschylus, the speeches of Pericles and Cicero, and the Homeric epics. The second reason, as classicist Tracy Lee Simmons emphasises in his excellent book Climbing Parnassus, was that learning these hard ancient languages had a point in itself -- it required students to focus on the precise meaning of words, making them less patient with sloppy language and thinking. For Westerners, only the languages of Latin and Greek can perform this role.

The high-minded hope was that the combination of the content and the process would make us better able to govern ourselves, both individually and as a society. To know a liberty fit for men, notanimals. What does it say that we are now fixated about becoming Asia-literate, but that there is no concern about the obvious decline in Western cultural literacy levels?

I am not saying that one should not learn Asian languages or have a deep interest in the cultures of Asia. I speak and read Mandarin and have been learning since university days. I ended up marrying a Brit who speaks Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu. Whether spending $11 billion on compulsory mass Asian language education training from year 3 onwards would result in a net economic gain or otherwise make sense is something others can duke out. From what I've seen so far of the plans, colour me highly sceptical.

What I do strongly believe is that one's understanding of the East will, in the long run, be hindered unless you have a proper understanding of the West. Lawrence of Arabia would have thought the lack of Latin and Greek a terrible obstacle to the understanding of Arabic. William Jones, the famed Sanskrit scholar, would have thought likewise with regard to understanding the languages and cultures of the subcontinent. The same holds true for the languages of East Asia. Australia's pre-eminent Sinologist, Pierre Ryckmans, was educated in Europe. I bet my bottom dollar he was taught Latin during his formative years. It shows in his writing style and liberal mind.

Without a decent acquaintance with the Western classical heritage we are dooming ourselves to a glib relativism born of ignorance, to being forever trapped in the parochialism of the present, to being a nation adrift without a cultural anchor.

What is needed is not a new state education plan. The renewal is unlikely to come via our sclerotic state-directed command-and-control education system that governs both fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools. Carthago delenda est.

If there is a renewal, I suspect it will be through less mainstream institutions like Sydney's Campion College, through teachers with a deep love of Western culture, and through some of the classically educating home schooling families I have been honoured to know.

It will come when we realise that it has been a terrible dereliction of duty not to pass on "the best that has been thought and said" to the next generation and we are not going to let it continue. Now that truly would be an education revolution.

Dan Ryan is a general counsel to a leading information technology company. He has worked in Hong Kong and China for 10 years.

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It’s probably a response to this, a plan by the New South Wales Government to run immersion programs in either Mandarin, Japanese or Indonesian in its primary schools.

What it comes down to, for me, is what importance we place on knowledge for the sake of knowledge. I think it’s important that we have people in our society who can read Latin and Greek. I’m not convinced that we need so many that it’s worth putting time and money into teaching them to everybody in High School. In practical terms, an Australian is far more likely to be more employable and do a useful job for the economy or the government from speaking Mandarin than from speaking Latin.

The biggest problem, I think (and former Prime Minister John Howard agrees with me on this, FWIW), is that we try to put everybody through the same education as everybody else. I wouldn’t have minded learning to read classical Latin in high school, and I would have enjoyed it far more and retained far more of it than a lot of the ‘responding to text’ stuff we did in Senior English. But it would have been useless to try and teach it to non-academic people, just as it would have been useless to try and train me to become a pro footballer.

I could speak a lot about this topic, but at a basic level I think our education system tries to achieve too much and ends up achieving too little. The English and Social Studies curricula focus on teaching ‘critical analysis’, which is a useful skill but not one that you can readily teach to teenagers in my view. It takes experience and a wide knowledge base. It would be far more useful to teach everyone to have a command of written and spoken English and a sound knowledge of historical facts, and then let students with an aptitude for those subjects move onto more advanced material. I’m convinced that students would enjoy school far more and be readily employable earlier with less higher education if there was more specialization in the High School curriculum – technical education for those technically inclined, and a more academic one for those who like and might use it. Then we could look at teaching classics again, but not before IMHO.
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Post by vison »

Amen. :)
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Post by Dave_LF »

Interesting. It may be true that few would have dared argue in favor of removing Latin and Green from the general curriculum in the 50's, but I think it's equally true that 5 years ago, few would have dared argue for putting it back. I think I detect a whiff of the Archbishop of Prague's argument here (that Europe needs to return to its Christian heritage or become Muslim), but using academic language instead of religious. Many people right now have a sense that things have gone wrong somewhere. I think we can expect to see a lot of arguments from nostalgia if that continues. The trouble is separating the legitimate points from cargo-cult thinking.
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Post by axordil »

It's less the particular languages than the pedagogy they represented that I pine for: logic, grammar, rhetoric. Those are the areas that define the ability to be a thinking member of society.
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Post by nerdanel »

I think that both "Western" and "Eastern" literacy are important, if you will. However, I think that schools' first obligation is to teach students to function in today's world. Given Asia's economic rise and growing population, being "Asia literate" is practically important, financially sensible, and arguably culturally sensitive. It is also easier to motivate students to learn subjects that are practically relevant, rather than subjects that seem arcane, dated, and purposeless. (Disclaimer: I do not consider Latin/Greek to be any of those things, but I think that many secondary school students would view it that way.)

In other words, I think both things should be taught, and I agree with the writers' concern about the decline of Western cultural literacy (including my own! I have learned neither Latin nor Greek, and have only read translations of a few of the classics he describes.) I also think that if our Western societies (especially mine) were focused enough on education, there would be time in the day for both. We are not.

I find the value judgments and assumptions in his piece disturbing, however. For instance, the idea that one cannot have a proper understanding of the East without a preexisting proper understanding of the West. Why? Why is the "best that has been taught and said" similarly associated with Western rather than Eastern culture? Finally, I don't understand what a Latin education has to do with a "liberal mind."
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Post by Elentári »

Interestingly, I believe most private schools in the UK still teach Latin. My youngest son has just started it this year (5th Grade). This is taught along with French as the only modern language at his Prep school.

I myself took Latin 'O' Level back in the early 80s at my State school, but this was as an option, and taken as an extra subject in 6th Form (ie aged 17.) It was unusual...we just happened to have a young French teacher at the school at that time, who was willing to take a small group (there were five of us, I believe) and teach us to 'O' Level standard. I find it invaluable with all the sacred choral music I enjoy performing.

Latin isn’t dead after all, it lives on in the mouths of all of us who speak English, as around half of our English words are derived from Latin. For those who speak French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian or Portuguese (the “Romance” languages), 90% of the vocabulary comes from Latin.

Here is an extract from a great website on the subject of teaching children Latin:
6 good reasons to study Latin:

1.Studying Latin prepares a student to master English and the Romance languages. Students of Latin, for example, typically score the highest on tests on English vocabulary!
2.Latin prepares a student for several important professions that are steeped in Latin or English words derived from Latin. Examples: law, medicine, science, music, theology, philosophy, literature.
3.Latin enables a student to have improved access to English literature prior to 1950 which is replete with references and citations in Latin. As well, the history of art and architecture is replete with Latin. Monuments and art all over the world are frequently graced with Latin.
4.Latin enables a student to more fully understand and appreciate the Roman empire which has had profound and continuing effect on western civilization.
5.Latin enables a student to enjoy some of the most influential literature the world has known in the original language. Learning Latin well enough to read original Latin works is attainable and imparts great satisfaction and enjoyment.
6.The study of Latin is an ongoing study in linguistic puzzle-solving that generally helps students to become close and careful readers and writers. Many believe it also hones the mental faculties generally. One well-known cancer researcher asked what best prepared him for a life of medical research. His response: “Studying Latin and Greek as a child.”
http://classicalacademicpress.com/index ... d_language
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Elentári wrote:Interestingly, I believe most private schools in the UK still teach Latin. My youngest son has just started it this year (5th Grade). This is taught along with French as the only modern language at his Prep school.
Some private schools in Australia still teach it. Mine did in junior high school, and it was a small and non-exclusive one. I wanted to take it, but it clashed with my other subjects. I would be surprised if the large and exclusive private schools didn’t teach it also. I know of no public school that does, however, and few smaller private schools would.
Elentári wrote:Latin isn’t dead after all, it lives on in the mouths of all of us who speak English, as around half of our English words are derived from Latin. For those who speak French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian or Portuguese (the “Romance” languages), 90% of the vocabulary comes from Latin.

Here is an extract from a great website on the subject of teaching children Latin:
6 good reasons to study Latin:

1.Studying Latin prepares a student to master English and the Romance languages. Students of Latin, for example, typically score the highest on tests on English vocabulary!
2.Latin prepares a student for several important professions that are steeped in Latin or English words derived from Latin. Examples: law, medicine, science, music, theology, philosophy, literature.
3.Latin enables a student to have improved access to English literature prior to 1950 which is replete with references and citations in Latin. As well, the history of art and architecture is replete with Latin. Monuments and art all over the world are frequently graced with Latin.
4.Latin enables a student to more fully understand and appreciate the Roman empire which has had profound and continuing effect on western civilization.
5.Latin enables a student to enjoy some of the most influential literature the world has known in the original language. Learning Latin well enough to read original Latin works is attainable and imparts great satisfaction and enjoyment.
6.The study of Latin is an ongoing study in linguistic puzzle-solving that generally helps students to become close and careful readers and writers. Many believe it also hones the mental faculties generally. One well-known cancer researcher asked what best prepared him for a life of medical research. His response: “Studying Latin and Greek as a child.”
http://classicalacademicpress.com/index ... d_language


That is true, but most people don’t go on from school to become doctors, lawyers or academics. Nor will most people want to work towards reading Caesar’s Gallic War in its original language. And it is readily possible to learn the law, read the works of Agatha Christie and Jane Austen and learn a romance language without knowing Latin – I’ve done the first two and am working on the third. I’d love to be able to read Latin and plan on making an effort at it some time later in my life (I tried to teach myself from my father’s old high school textbook as a kid but only got as far as the second declension :oops:), but I can admit that the majority of high school students would find it useless. I did learn some basic Latin roots for common English words in a State Primary School, and I think that is very useful as part of a sound English education, but actually learning to read Latin is, IMHO, not. And per nel’s point above, if they can’t be persuaded that a subject is useful then students will not get much out of it. I think too many people who write school curricula ignore that – it’s worthwhile to try and educate people in a way that satisfies them, and teenagers aren’t stupid.

I think learning an Asian language in primary school should be mandatory, but I'd like to see a return to classical education as an option in the final year of junior and senior high school (whatever the equivalent of that is in everyone else's country).
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Many Protestant seminarians study Hebrew and Greek, but not Latin—the Bible wasn't written in Latin, it was translated into Latin, and not terribly well, either.

But that's graduate school.

In the United States, Lord_M, Spanish is the most useful second language. In Canada I would assume it's French. Our local school district offers immersion programs in Spanish, French, and Japanese. Latin is nowhere to be seen, even as a single class.
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Post by axordil »

Some private schools in the US teach Latin starting in the fourth grade.
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Post by JewelSong »

My daughter went to Boston Latin High School, where the language is still a required part of the curriculum. I think knowing the Latin vocabulary and derivatives really helped her education...and she's in Human Services, not any kind of classical or medical field.

Thing is, you don't need to study Latin grammar or conjugations or anything. What you need is simply the vocabulary and how it relates to English and modern-day languages. Latin doesn't need to be studied the way you would study a spoken language such as Japanese or French. But I do think that the study of the words and the roots is extremely helpful in a well-rounded education.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Primula Baggins wrote:In the United States, Lord_M, Spanish is the most useful second language. In Canada I would assume it's French. Our local school district offers immersion programs in Spanish, French, and Japanese. Latin is nowhere to be seen, even as a single class.
Yes, I should have mentioned I was talking about Australian schools when I said an Asian language should be mandatory. obviously Spanish and French are more useful in North America. Still, it's the same basic issue - the original article could have been written by an American talking about teaching the classics vs teaching Spanish.
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Post by JewelSong »

I think both (classic and modern languages) are useful because they serve different purposes.
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Post by N.E. Brigand »

If Latin should be taught for its value to modern English, why not Old English too?
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Post by axordil »

OE is harder, mostly due to a relative dearth of primary sources using it. And it doesn't help you with the Germanic languages the way Latin does with the Romance languages.
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Post by Ellienor »

Well, I took three years of Latin in high school. Translated a lot of battle reports. :) Unfortunately, it wasn't very compelling for me (Latin, or the battles.)

Maybe I'm one of those cultural ignoramuses (ummm, on second thought, skip the "maybe") but I would be far more interested in having my children learning Mandarin* than Latin. It's not so apparent here, in CO, but I have traveled to the Bay area for work and it is exceedingly clear where research and development are going for the biotech industry. And, being able to interface with Asia, especially China, is going to be absolutely more and more important for professionals in the U.S.

*Mandarin is an option at our local middle school. Yay Boulder!
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Post by Nin »

In Switzerland, every public secondary school offers latin. Students can choose option latin, science or visual arts. Astonishingly enough, the best result in maths tests are from students with latin, not with science option (it's a soft option, in fact). My son will have to decide next year - at the age of 12 - if he wants to learn Latin and I strongly encourage him. Mandatory languages are German (national language) and English. He seems to be really willing. Latin is a huge help for French spelling which is very difficult and which is his weak point.

My school - higher secondary school - offers latin and ancient greek. My step-son graduated with a bilingual programm with German and Latin and Greek. For him in university now with anthropology, ehtnology and archeology, it is actually quite useful and gained him credits.

While I encourage my children to take Latin at the age of twelve, I would not force them to continue in higher secondary. You can also choose Spanish or Italian then - it will be their choice.


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Last edited by Nin on Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vison »

Nin wrote:In Switzerland, every public secondary school offers latin. Students can choose option latin, science or visual arts. Astonishingly enough, the best result in maths tests are from students with latin, not with science option (it's a soft option, in fact). My son will have to decide next year -. at the age of 12 - if he wants to learn Latin and I strongly encourage him. Mandatory languages are German (national language) and English. He seems to be really willing. Latin is a huge help for French spelling which is very difficult and which is his weak point.

My school - higher secondary school - offers latin and ancient greek. My step-son graduated with a bilingual programm with German and Latin and Greek. For him in university now with anthropology, ehtnology and archeology, it is actually quite useful and gained him credits.

While I encourage my children to take Latin at the age of twelve, I owuld not force them to continue in higher secondary. You can also choose Spanish or Italian then - it will be thier choice.
I think European children are much better educated than Canadian or American children.
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Post by Lalaith »

axordil wrote:It's less the particular languages than the pedagogy they represented that I pine for: logic, grammar, rhetoric. Those are the areas that define the ability to be a thinking member of society.
This is a very strong trend among homeschoolers, btw. (So far I'm resisting it, but for my own reasons--not because I think it's a bad idea or anything. ;) )
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Post by Lidless »

Flocci non facio latin.

I had to endure Latin for two years. Almost all the benefits cited can be gleaned from learning another living language. Hardly anyone goes on to read Iliad in the original Latin once they have left school.

The brain and memory required to learn Latin at a young age far outways its usefulness. Not only are nouns gender specific, but their ending changes depending on the case (accusative, dative...). Way too many irregular verbs and nouns too.

The scene in Lfe Of Brian where the centurion is trying to get Brian to write 'Romans go home' was *exactly* how it was at my school, as it was for theirs.

Best that the brain power be spent on something else at that age. A couple of years of philology would enrich kids more than Latin, and would also be more interesting!
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Post by Aravar »

My experienbce with latin is exactly the opposite to Lidless. I thouroughly enjoyed it and studied both at O' and A' level. I even did the Latin translaiton paper for my University entrance exam.

It was useful in studying Roman Law, which was compulsory at the time. There was even a question in Latin on the paper, which turned out to be quite an easy one.

It's a very structured language. Although there are different cases that just makes the expression of concepts more compact an what is expressed in a few words in English may be expressed by one in Latin. The declensions of the nouns, while they differ have a regularity about them and aren't difficult to learn. IIRC there are only five irreuglar verbs, and they are only irregular in the present tense, including esse, to be which anyone who has learnt etre in French will recognise. The vocabulary isn't that hard either, so many modern English words are derived from Latin ones with the same or similar meaning: navis, fleet, becomes navy etc.

IMO it was well worth studying and no harder than any other language. In fact I found it a lot easier to get to grips with than German. I couldn't leanr Greek at my school, but my Latin teacher was of the view that it was easier than Latin, once you got used to the alphabet.
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