Classics in school and education in general

[vison]

I don't use algebra, but I like knowing I could.

However, I use arithmetic every day. Constantly figuring percentages and ratios, etc. Balancing chequebooks. I like it.

I think if a kid learns to read reasonably well, express a thought coherently, and cypher well enough to balance a bank statement that kid has a good basic education. Everything else is gravy.

Impenitent, in some ways Tay sounds like your daughter. In other ways he doesn't. But his counsellor said she thought he has low self esteem. Maybe he does. But I don't know. He's cocky and arrogant, half the time. Covering up? I suppose so.

I swear that the hardest job in the world is shepherding kids through high school. I did it twice before and here I am again and it's HARD.

[Inanna]

Learning certain subjects, or maybe every subject, has an effect far beyond just that subject learned. It teaches students how to think. And the sad part is that you don't understand that till years later. That's why I think science and maths are so important - because of the way they teach you how to think. In the same way, latin or other languages can teach you how to maybe, split problems into its ingredients. We know different learnings create different nueron connections in the brain. Each language does seem to have some hard-wiring that comes with it.

I am a mechanical engineer, and I have completely left that path now. But that training is still with me, and I still approach my research like an engineer.

My worry is that if students are not taught algebra at school, they might never comprehend dX/dY, or comprehend it with extreme difficulty - which would forever close certain career paths to them. Take, the insurance industry - a useful industry in today's world - is based on probability. Having that taught in high school helps.

[elfshadow]

I fully and completely concur with everything Mahima said! The real purpose behind learning such "useless" subjects as calculus, Latin, etc. involves not the material itself but the skills that you develop while doing it. I was a decent math student and took all the way through multivariable calculus in high school. I also took advanced chemistry and physics. Hated them all the while! My stubborn self wanted to get as far away as possible from math and science, so I majored in government in college. Then, surprise surprise, I realized that I really did want to do science, so I am now back in classes taking my med school prereqs. If I haven't taken all those "useless" math and science courses in high school, I probably never would have made this choice, because I wouldn't know that I could even do science and math at all.

My point is that it may take a while for kids to realize the value of learning for the sake of learning, and they may never realize it at all. I believe that a part of everything you learn will stay with you in some way. As Mahima put so well, teaching someone how to think is enormously important. The purpose of education is to give kids a background for being able to choose whatever career path suits them when they graduate high school. By saying that we should only teach what is absolutely practical, I think we will be shutting a lot of doors for people later on in life if they decide to do something else instead. So, while it is important to give students the freedom to pursue their interests, we should remember that interests change. Kids need to graduate with a solid academic background that will allow them to pursue new interests that develop later on in life.

[Holbytla]

I agree with the idea that subjects help students above and beyond a practical application. I agree that math, science and language help students.
I also believe that there are subjects that we don't teach, or teach only the rudiments of, that would be far more beneficial to people in this society.

Two of the biggest problems we have today are the lack of financial education and the lack of health education. The food industry in this country is an absolute nightmare, and is probably responsible for killing many many people and most people don't even realize it. Most people aren't intelligent enough about nutrition to do anything about it even if they knew about it. Some people wouldn't change whether they knew or not, but I think it is high time we educate people and give the people who do care a fighting chance.

[vison]

Let's hear more, Holbytla.

[Primula Baggins]

I agree.

[Holbytla]

I don't want to derail this thread further, so when I have some time maybe I'll make a food thread.

[Primula Baggins]

That would be great. Thanks!

[Nin]

Yes, Holby, that would be. I'm deep into corrections this week-end, but I have been thinking a lot about vison's and Impenitent's posts as their children are in the age-range of my students. Only it will take some time to type out a decent answer.

[axordil]

If I had to pick one area of math we should require that we don't, it would be prob/stat. Everyone uses probability and statistics whether they know it or not, and as a rule humans are lousy at both without training.

[River]

If I had to pick one area of math we should require that we don't, it would be prob/stat. Everyone uses probability and statistics whether they know it or not, and as a rule humans are lousy at both without training.

Yeah, they're both pretty counterintuitive.

We also use algebra whether we know it or not. Anytime you're solving for an unknown, it's algebra.

The way math at my HS was set up we did cover probability and statistics and I think that's true for most these days. However, the treatment we got was very basic and the full power of the concepts didn't really come across. Unless you took the AP class, which was basically the same as a college intro-level stat course. I pretty much got through that by listening to my intuition and then doing the opposite.

[Nin]

As a teacher I work with students aged roughgly between 15 and 20 (those who repeat a year) and I think it is what you would call high school in the English speaking part of the world. Here it is called „collège“.

I know it’s a difficult age and it’s a hard task to get kids over it. My step-children both already went through or are near the end of the process.

I see that most of the time the idea of “this will be useful in your life” only works with students who are motivated from the start on. For others, the only thing which does work is if you manage to have at least some fun in the class-room. To allow them to laugh and to have a good contact. Now, teaching German often means to teach their worst subject or at least one of the subjects they don’t like at all. So, I work very hard on motivation and found some ways which work for me at work.

Now, as I read you, vison and Impenitent, it makes me think of my students… (although, working in the immersion programme, I am quite lucky, as only top-grads students enter and a part of my classes are those classes filled with good students.) So, to make German fun or at last bearable, there are several things: first, I give them exact plans of what they have to do for which lesson and when they will be tested and on what I judge them. They know what to expect and I respect my programme, so that I can tell them: I do my job, do yours. I give test back very quickly (and often correct in the middle of the night in order to do so), I explain my marks. I encourage my students to talk and to make mistakes talking. It’s not bad to make mistakes, they are there to learn and not to know everything beforehanded. My job is to teach and to explain and not to mock them if they are wrong or to let them go wrong. I usually have time after the lessons to talk to my students. I stay during pauses and I am ready to talk about other things than school. I make them laugh with examples about my orcs and by explaining vocabulary through littles theatre scenes and lousy drawings which they like. From time to time, I make cookies. I love making them and my orcs don’t eat them, whereas my students are crazy about my cookies. And in the end, with all this, I do get a lot of echo from my students and they work a lot for me.

Ask your kids about how their teachers work; they have to adapt to everyone and it’s easier if you know that the science teacher is a mess to understand that the science notes are a mess too (although maybe another student is doing particularly well with the very same teacher) I think they still don’t know why precisely they have to read German literature, but lessons become more enjoyable and that makes them work.

Now, vison about the social net-working: it’s nightmare sometimes… they even take out their cell-phones in class and want to send text-messages during the lessons. The other day, I confiscated an I-phone during one of my lessons, then, while the students were busy with exercices, went to the Facebook icon and changed the status of this student: “XXX is too stupid to use his phone without being seen by his teachers…”. I gave him back his phone without telling that. It made the round of school yard the next day and I see less cell phones now. Another time, I sent a text message from the cell phone of one of my students to his mother (who had asked him if he’d come for lunch – during a school lesson) to tell her that she should not text her kid during lessons – how should he learn with that example? I tell you parents of students are shere nightmares at moments. Many of my Facebook “friends” are, in fact, students. (That’s why I hardly ever write something personal on Facebook!). Once they know, that you listen, they are less vocal about school on FB. I never ask students to be my friends, but I add those who ask. So, it is always their choice.

Often, I find boys easier to handle, unless they have hysteric mothers behind them. Girls, especially around 16 are more fragile and you must be so careful with them. I’ve had anorectic students, broken hearted girls, crying girls in class, totally silent girls, girls changing boy-friend almost daily… Boys are louder and sometimes more annoying, but if you tell them straight ahead that what they do is stupid and they don’t get so easily hurt and take advices. Of course, girls get better marks and are easier to handle in class-rooms, but when you have students who are in trouble, somehow you can still talk to the boys, whereas the girls close in in their world and are beyond reach.

I’ve had students dropping out and coming back or never coming back from whom you hear years later: yeah, I have learned this or that in another school.

Impenitent, I am very sorry for your daughter dropping out of the system. Sometimes, it is hard when you have 24 students in your class, even though you know that there is one who needs you more than the others, you just don’t have the time for this one. Also, as a teacher you are not trained for psychological problems. And sometimes you fear to do more bad than good if you try as an amateur.

It’s not dramatic to loose a year (my step-daughter had to repeat one year, my step-son almost, and I jumped one because I could not bear school any more, but I knew I wanted to go to university). Maybe after a year of a break, she might enjoy it again. If she does not know what she wants to in her future, the motivation of “this will be useful” does not work. Then, only the idea of enjoying school helps: for that it might help to have a pedagogical method which she might adhere to (like Steiner schools) if this is avalable to you. I have also followed one student who had major anorexia problems and whom we took out of many classes and kept only in those which she did not judge destructive to help her through that time. Somehow, they still managed to make that year count. Another idea might be to go away for a year or some months and try to go to school in another system, in another country. I know from Australia everything is really far away, but sometimes it is good to be for a while with someone who does not worry so much for you.

Anyway, you know, whatever you teach those kids, is wrong when you talk to their parents. And when they don’t learn or have bad marks it’s always your fault. I love my job.

[vison]

Nin, reading that I see that you are a good teacher. Tay has had good teachers - by that, I mean "teachers he will relate to". You never know, do you? His counsellor is a brisk, active young woman who just goes ahead with what will work rather than with something "he should do".

I try not to freak out, he's only 15 and has not had an easy life and I should not "expect" him to be more mature than he is.

He can do amazing things when he sets his mind to it, but right now he doesn't seem to care about anything. That bothers me.

[Primula Baggins]

Is it possible he's clinically depressed? I've seen kids with that whose main symptom was apathy. And it's not an unusual thing at his age.

[JewelSong]

His counsellor is a brisk, active young woman who just goes ahead with what will work rather than with something "he should do".

She sounds like a keeper!

I try not to freak out, he's only 15 and has not had an easy life and I should not "expect" him to be more mature than he is.

Not freaking out is always good. Bottom line is - is he doing anything dangerously irrevocable? If not, then open communication and a watchful eye might be all that is needed right now. Plus a little humor and a lotta love.

He can do amazing things when he sets his mind to it, but right now he doesn't seem to care about anything. That bothers me.

Of course it bothers you! Don't you just want to shake him until his teeth rattle? But as you say, he's a smart and savvy kid. And he's turning into a man and many times, kids just...shut off for a time. Or decide that they need to "prove" something to "someone" by showing that they DON'T CARE and that they are BIG AND BRAVE AND ARROGANT and that they can give the finger to the WORLD because EVERYTHING SUCKS ANYWAY.

If he is not hurting himself, still following the house rules (more or less) and being halfway decent to you and the rest of the family...I would tend to let him stuff up the schoolwork if that is what he is doing. He's almost 16, as you said, he needs to start making his own choices.

My own oldest completely bollixed up his senior year, had to take summer school, couldn't WAIT to get out of my house (once he told me he'd rather be "living in the gutter on the street than in THIS hell-hole of a house!") and refused to go to college. He got out of the house, lived on his own, worked as an EMT for 5 years. He just graduated (with HIGH honors) with a degree in Respiratory Therapy. While working full-time. He also got married and is step-dad to two kids. He's happy and productive and we have a good relationship.

Some kids just have their own path and some kids are determined to travel the hardest road possible, no matter what.

[vison]

Following the hard road seems to be a common trait for the men in my family, both immediate and extended. I put it down to the rare and deadly combination of Norse and Scot, although - come to think of it - the Scots are often merely shipwrecked Vikings anyway . . . .

Tay is mostly a pretty good kid. He is home and sound asleep by 9:30 or 10:00 nine nights out of ten. He phones if he's going to be late, phones to ask if it's okay if he hangs out at a friend's after school, thanks me for dinner, kisses me good night and says he loves me every day, does his own laundry, helps with minor household chores, works a day or so a week at his dad's shop or in the farm, is liked by most of his teachers, has saved money and spent it on the car he and his dad are rebuilding . . . .

Man. Writing that has been an eye-opener. He really is a pretty good kid. I know he smokes pot, but it does not seem to be an issue, or an every day issue. However, his counsellor says she calls pot "the I-don't-give-a-s**t" drug. He has some awful racist ideas, which really troubles me and I can't discuss it with him without losing my temper, which helps nothing, I know.

He is a very reserved boy, will NOT discuss his feelings nor consider counselling. No way. I can't force it, and wouldn't if I could. He is beavering away on his math and English, trying to get caught up, and is doing all right in his other classes. Anyway, it's not his "work", it's his "attitude". Defiant and cocky, arrogant, as I say. Underneath no doubt he's scared and unsure, like most boys that age.

But you know, when he smiles, the world around him lights up.

[JewelSong]

vison, he sounds like a great kid. (Does his OWN LAUNDRY! )

And the attitude, unfortunately, sounds typical for MANY 15 year-olds, both boys and girls. The attitude can make you want to strangle them with your bare hands. But if you can try to speak to the kid behind the attitude - the one you know is there, the one who tells you he loves you every day and does the chores and the laundry - well, then maybe the attitude will soften a bit. And at the very least, not upset you so much.

It doesn't sound to me like he is in any major trouble. In fact, it sounds like he is doing pretty damn well. Try to ride it out. Without killing him.

[Nin]

You know vison, my step son is 22 and he is good "kid" in so many ways ( also does his own laundry and cooking - better than me - and studies), yet his attitude still makes me crawl up the wall sometimes.
I'm a bit afraid how my kids will turn in a few years. But I also see that some of my students are really nice with me and at school and you meet the parents and they only complain. It's different to have them at home.

I fear by discussion individual situations, we osgiliate the thread, but I think to see how school and home together form a kid (and what should be done by whom) is pretty interesting.

[vison]

Our children are the biggest jobs we'll ever have, those of us who have children. Those who don't probably think we're nutz or something, but getting these kids through the teenage years is the hardest!

Maybe in other places, where people are poor and have to scrabble for mere food, teenagers are different. Ours live in wealthy societies where everything is handed to them on a silver platter. We aren't doing them any favours by giving them so much.

But I don't know how to get around it.

[Primula Baggins]

The platter's bigger now, but when and where I was brought up, I got what was important to me handed to me: music lessons, enough of an allowance to buy paperback books pretty regularly, new clothes when I really needed them, a fair amount of freedom once I was in high school. I did work every lunch period washing dishes, but that was because I earned free lunch and my parents let me keep the 50 cents a day I got for a lunch allowance, which brought my weekly allowance up to $4. I'm not poor-mouthing; that was a lot by the middle-class standard where I lived, a lot for the mid-1970s.

My point is that my cup was pretty full. I didn't have an iPod or the use of a car or my own TV or phone or anything like that, and personal computers didn't even exist; but what I wanted, I had. So I was just as indulged as a kid now who has a iPod and cell phone and full use of a computer. The stuff just costs more.

For better or worse, my American generation and this one had it equally soft, from our own point of view (and probably the point of view of our grandparents ).