Reincarnation

[Alatar]

I was just grumbling to myself about how this board seemed to have turned into a religious discussion board, so why am I posting yet another quasi-religious thread? I don't really know, except that the concept of re-incarnation has always fascinated me despite the fact that I know very little about it and which religions embrace the concept. I'll be frank and admit, right off the bat, that most of my opinions here are not well thought out or reasoned. I've never really attempted to think through this in any serious fashion. I have vague notions in my head about how the spiritual aspect of reincarnation could be explained as the literal "resurrection of the body" as mentioned in Christianity. I'll also admit to being heavily influenced by (of all people) Dennis Wheatley. For those who are not familiar, Dennis Wheatley wrote what I can only describe as "Satanic adventure novels". "To the Devil a Daughter", "The Devil Rides Out" and "The Satanist" were picked up in a half price bookstore and devoured. I still wonder that my parents allowed me to read them, but luckily I didn't try to have carnal knowledge of the neighbours daughter or sacrifice any kitties. I assume they were smart enough to know that I could seperate fantasy from reality, but still, fair play to them for indulging my curiosity. Anyway, aside from the usual satanic mumbo jumbo and Wheatleys insistence in the foreword that all these books were based on fact the only thing that I came away with after reading them was a concept that resonated with me. I can't remember the exact quote, but the gist of it was this:

How can anyone believe in a just god who would condemn a person to hell on the evidence of just one life. Someone born into poverty and the family of a murderer has much less chance of rising above their circumstances than one born into a family in comfortable circumstances with loving parents and strong values. Only by allowing people to relive their lives do we get a true feeling of whether their soul is true.

Now, I know this is a mish-mash of concepts. It's not the idea that your performance in this life sets you up for promotion or demotion in the next as I believe some faiths attest. It's the idea that you get a better sampling of the worth a persons soul if you see how it performs in both advantaged and disadvantaged environments.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. Does anyone have thoughts on the concept of reincarnation? In any sense.

Alatar

[truehobbit]

LOL, those sound like really crappy books!

Only by allowing people to relive their lives do we get a true feeling of whether their soul is true.

It's not the idea that your performance in this life sets you up for promotion or demotion in the next as I believe some faiths attest. It's the idea that you get a better sampling of the worth a persons soul if you see how it performs in both advantaged and disadvantaged environments.

But that would mean that the poor soul who gets born into disadvantaged circumstances would need, at some point, to be born into better circumstances in order for this sampling to make sense.
What if one gets born into bad surroundings again and again and again?
Who says where you get put next time?

I must say I don't like the concept of reincarnation. (You did ask for thoughts in any sense! )

I think what annoys me most about it is that it would mean that no one is unique, and I guess that the uniqueness of each individual was one of the central ideas I've always been taught.

It seems to me that reincarnation is also "fashionable" in the context of esoteric trends, which I tend to find naive and superficial. And lastly, the idea of reincarnation seems to appeal to people who would like to have been Cleopatra in an earlier life - I mean, no one ever seems to have lived as a humble serf in previous centuries, have they?

[Alatar]

LOL, those sound like really crappy books!

Actually they weren't bad considering! I enjoyed them enough to read a few of them although I never felt interested enough to reread them. They were an interesting part of my reading experience though, and I'm glad that I read them rather then not. They certainly exposed me to a different way of thinking and that alone made them worthwhile.

It's not the idea that your performance in this life sets you up for promotion or demotion in the next as I believe some faiths attest. It's the idea that you get a better sampling of the worth a persons soul if you see how it performs in both advantaged and disadvantaged environments.

But that would mean that the poor soul who gets born into disadvantaged circumstances would need, at some point, to be born into better circumstances in order for this sampling to make sense.
What if one gets born into bad surroundings again and again and again?
Who says where you get put next time?

Well, I assume God does... Reincarnation does not preclude the belief in God. I prefer the idea of a random sampling rather than the promotion/demotion idea because they are self perpetuating. A disadvantaged man is more likely to end up in crime and thus be reborn into a worse situation next time round. That doesn't seem right to me.

I must say I don't like the concept of reincarnation. (You did ask for thoughts in any sense! )

I think what annoys me most about it is that it would mean that no one is unique, and I guess that the uniqueness of each individual was one of the central ideas I've always been taught.

I don't agree that reincarnation means one is no longer unique. The soul would still be unique, as would the experiences of that lifetime. Can you explain what you mean?

It seems to me that reincarnation is also "fashionable" in the context of esoteric trends, which I tend to find naive and superficial. And lastly, the idea of reincarnation seems to appeal to people who would like to have been Cleopatra in an earlier life - I mean, no one ever seems to have lived as a humble serf in previous centuries, have they?

I'm not really referring to that sort of pseudo religious stuff, but the actual concept of reincarnation as either an afterlife in itself or as a way to define whether a soul is fit for heaven.

Alatar

[JewelSong]

It seems to me that reincarnation is also "fashionable" in the context of esoteric trends, which I tend to find naive and superficial.

Well, maybe it seems "trendy" here in Western cultures, but most Eastern religions have a belief in reincarnation and those folks have been around for eons.

I have to say that I think the idea of reincarnation is wicked kewl.

But I don't believe in it, not really. Fun to think about, though!

[truehobbit]

Well, I assume God does... Reincarnation does not preclude the belief in God. I prefer the idea of a random sampling rather than the promotion/demotion idea because they are self perpetuating. A disadvantaged man is more likely to end up in crime and thus be reborn into a worse situation next time round. That doesn't seem right to me.

Well, if some god picks, it's not random, is it?
I think it's unfair either way: let's say you get five tries. If the selection is random, you might end up in low life five times in a row.
If you get as many tries as you need to satisfy the curiosity of whoever judges (who judges? a god again? what kind of god is it?) one person may get away with two or three tries, and another needs a zillion.
And is it a good thing to have many tries or not?
I would say that for most modern adherents reincarnation means you want to stay around.
Of course, for Hindus it's a reward thing: once you've been good enough you don't have to be reincarnated anymore. Hence, reincarnation is a kind of punishment.
For most western fans of the idea, it's a kind of eternal life - meaning you never disappear entirely from this world. In that sense, you'd certainly not want to be "rewarded" by escaping the cycle.

I don't agree that reincarnation means one is no longer unique. The soul would still be unique, as would the experiences of that lifetime. Can you explain what you mean?

If whatever it is that makes you you, was the moving agent in another body in the past, then that other body was you, too, and Alatar is not unique - he has already lived countless times.

I'm not really referring to that sort of pseudo religious stuff, but the actual concept of reincarnation as either an afterlife in itself or as a way to define whether a soul is fit for heaven.

Reincarnation as an afterlife? I don't know what you mean by that.
I don't think you can just discount this pseudo religious stuff, because it is what many people of our civilisation find an attractive spirituality to embrace.
I also think it's a bit strange that on the one hand you don't like the idea of promotion/reward and on the other hand consider the whole process as a reward process.

[Alatar]

Well, if some god picks, it's not random, is it?
I think it's unfair either way: let's say you get five tries. If the selection is random, you might end up in low life five times in a row.
If you get as many tries as you need to satisfy the curiosity of whoever judges (who judges? a god again? what kind of god is it?) one person may get away with two or three tries, and another needs a zillion.
And is it a good thing to have many tries or not?
I would say that for most modern adherents reincarnation means you want to stay around.
Of course, for Hindus it's a reward thing: once you've been good enough you don't have to be reincarnated anymore. Hence, reincarnation is a kind of punishment.
For most western fans of the idea, it's a kind of eternal life - meaning you never disappear entirely from this world. In that sense, you'd certainly not want to be "rewarded" by escaping the cycle.

Hobby, are you asking me to invent a religion? That's not what I'm doing here. I'm exploring the options that might be possible for reincarnation, not trying to defend a belief system that I don't even subscribe to.

So:
You suggest that it's not fair either way. Do you believe that it is fairer to judge people on one lifetime regardless of their circumstances and opportunities? I don't think so. That said, I'm not about to decide how many times God should have people live before he decides on their worth. It's hardly my job, particularly since this is all hypothetical.

Is it a good thing to have many tries or not? Again, not for me to decide. I would assume that if there is reincarnation most of us don't know about it so we're hardly likely to complain about how many turns on the merry-go-round it took. I hardly think you get a medal for graduating early.

Reincarnation means you want to stay around? Seems a bit pointless if you don't carry your memories from one life to another. Neither would I see it as a punishment. If anything, the closest I can come to the concept is that reincarnation is purgatory.

If whatever it is that makes you you, was the moving agent in another body in the past, then that other body was you, too, and Alatar is not unique - he has already lived countless times.

But who Alatar is depends on both the soul and the experiences of that life. If I had been born into a different family I would be a different person. We are the sum of our essence and our experience.

I also think it's a bit strange that on the one hand you don't like the idea of promotion/reward and on the other hand consider the whole process as a reward process.

No. I consider the whole process as a fair way to judge fitness for heaven. It would not be fair if you got a better chance at being good every time you were good. That's self fulfilling. The real test is to shine in adversity, or in this case to rise above your roots.

[nerdanel]

Al,

I read this post, and my first reaction was, "What the heck has this board become? The religious discussion board?"

It's as though everyone had this long-standing itch to discuss these issues, and has only just realized it this week. That said, these discussions are fun - I'm not criticizing.

Reincarnation is yet another thing that I view as uncertain - it might be happening, it might not. A few scattered thoughts from someone who doesn't know very much about the idea:

(1) It seems to me that, as a tool for growing closer to the Divine, reincarnation would have more utility if we knew of our previous existence(s); if they seemed to build and grown upon each other. But what if they do, in some less conscious sense? For instance, what if I was an atrocious criminal in a past life, repented and really learned from my wrongdoing in prison, and was born into this life with a soul with a higher propensity than previous not to do criminal wrongs? I guess this is the notion that the soul has some sort of retention ability between lives, even if it's a part of the soul that the human brain cannot access.
(Without the notion that the soul develops as it progresses through multiple lives, I don't understand the point of reincarnation. It seems like you would constantly be reinventing the wheel - all of your soul's development in one life would be lost in the next.)

(2) This wouldn't mean that you would have to move "up the social ladder", fortunately. That idea would be problematic, as it would clear the way for the rich to look down their noses at the poor, and for the poor to look down their noses at animals who might also have souls. So, presumably, someone could have done great wrong as a rich person, and then be born into the next life as a much wiser poor person.

(3) Hobby, I disagree that this idea destroys uniqueness. To the contrary, assuming that a soul only exists in one body at one time, all of the more than six billion people on earth right now have unique souls. Second, let's say that many of those souls were also present in the previous generation. But, using my idea, they were at a previous stage of development - so, each manifestation of the soul would still be unique. Even using what Alatar says - in which the idea is more to present a given soul with a range of circumstances to see how it does - how a soul performs under a given set of conditions would still be a unique presentation.

[Cerin]

How can anyone believe in a just god who would condemn a person to hell on the evidence of just one life.

By also believing that that God made a way for every single sinner to cleansed and forgiven of their transgressions and avoid hell.

Your idea seems to assume the notion that there are degrees of sin, and only the most egregious sinners go to hell; or, that there are degrees of mercy, and only the less egregious sinners qualify; or that mercy has nothing to do with it, and heaven is achieved by earning one's place through good behavior (all of which are contrary to the beliefs of Christianity -- and of course, meaning 'Christianity' as I understand it).

To me, the idea of reincarnation is horrible. It is like another version of hell, having to repeat the processes of human life again and again. No doubt I react viscerally because it is so contrary to the beliefs I've embraced.

I don't have alot to say about this, and I don't intend to divert your thread into a discussion of Christian belief. I just wanted to address that initial concept.

[nerdanel]

By also believing that that God made a way for every single sinner to cleansed and forgiven of their transgressions and avoid hell.

Cerin, this is absolutely just me playing devil's advocate, but does not reincarnation offer a way to reconcile Christianity with:

- People who die too young to have been exposed to Christian teachings
- People who, because of life circumstances or geography, are never exposed to Christian teachings
OR
- People who have had such experiences with others who call themselves Christians that the possibility of them embracing Christianity in their present life drops to zero. (For example, someone who was molested by a priest claiming to be Christian and shies away from the religion as a result. Doubtless, he still has the choice to become Christian, but certainly it could be a compromised choice for him relative to someone who has not had that experience. On a larger scale, people who have experienced violence or flat-out murder at the hands of people calling themselves Christians - again, have had a much less viable "free choice" to embrace what would have appeared to them to be the religion of their persecutors.*)

In these senses, it seems like reincarnation might in fact complement Christianity better than many other religions...that it might be God's way of offering people who never really had a fair first shake at embracing Christianity, a second chance.

* No matter how much others can argue, after the fact, that the persecutors really weren't Christian.

[Cerin]

tp, I intend to post the answers to some questions people asked in the Hell thread but was uncomfortable posting before. I think they'll address these points you've raised, and perhaps you and I can address your comments further there at some point.

I think God is big enough to deal with all of these circumstances. Reincarnation strikes me as incompatible with the ideas of Christianity, most especially the resurrection of the body. And in the end, the deal is sealed for me by a Bible verse. Hebrews 9: 27 (with the sentence finishing in v. 28.)

27And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. <snip>

[Jnyusa]

I don't know much about reincarnation. The concept was taught to me by people who did not believe in it - never a good idea! - and I've never troubled to study it from people who did believe in it. So I have only general impressions as to what this belief really entails, and it seems defensible to me.

In the physical world, here on Earth at least, everything is recycled. The same matter is used over and over again to compose new forms.

But then there is a second principle at work - the principle of change, evolution. And we observe that this principle works in the direction of increasing complexity, and increasing importance of ... something non-material ... allow me to call it 'information.'

The processes appear to be random (to address Hobby's point) and yet they yield a definite trend. We now know that random distributions are in fact governed by underlying dynamic, non-linear equations, so there is ... room for discovery, let's say.

I think of reincarnation in these terms. It is 'recycling' at the spiritual level, but this is not the only principle at work. How the informational principle works we don't really understand, but the rest of Nature suggests that it could and very likely does exist.

Jn

[Ethel]

I have a crackpot theory about reincarnation. I don't actually believe that our souls get stuffed into new bodies when we die, but there's something intuitively attractive about the idea, isn't there? It's surprisingly easy to imagine oneself having lived at other times and other places.

Here's the crackpot theory: parts of us have lived in other places and other times. Our DNA goes back to the very first humans. We as individuals have only one brief place in the chain of life, but our DNA has been around for the duration. So is it too goofy to suggest that at least a part of us "knows" we have lived before?

[JewelSong]

I like how you think, Ethel!

Seems almost like one could make a bumper sticker about it:

"My DNA has really been around!"

"My atoms are eternal!"

"We have the same great (100th power) Grand-daddy!"

Or...you know. Something.

[vison]

Well, we certainly are all rather closely related, here on earth.

I have much trouble with reincarnation, myself.

*everyone is surprised that vison has trouble with reincarnation*

I've read a bit about it, but as with most religious beliefs, you are expected/required to go on "faith" and so, as per usual, I bail out.

Interesting, that this forum has become so "spiritual". Interesting and very nice. Everyone struggles with these great questions.

And we are all so very civil and polite.

That's nice, too.

[yovargas]

To me, the idea of reincarnation is horrible. It is like another version of hell, having to repeat the processes of human life again and again.

I'm currently reading a book on the Buddha and apparently and Buddhists aren't crazy about it either. The whole idea of the religion is to find a way to escape the endless cycle of suffering. That happens when you acheive Nirvana.

Though I'm not crazy about either idea, I find it more pleasant to consider than the concept of original sin, though I think they're both saying similar things, spiritually (ie. life without god = suffering).

[Sassafras]

Well, we have at least one (alleged) reincarnated person living today.

The 14th Dalai Lama:

Dalai" means "ocean" in Mongolian, and "Lama" (bla ma) is the Tibetan equivalent of the Sanskrit word "guru", and so may mean "teacher" or "monk." The actual title "Dalai Lama" is best translated as "Ocean of Wisdom"; it was first bestowed by the Mongolian ruler Altan Khan upon Sonam Gyatso, an abbot at the Drepung monastery who was widely considered the most eminent lama of his time. Although Sonam Gyatso became the first lama to hold the title "Dalai Lama", due to the fact that he was the third member of his lineage, he became known as the "3rd Dalai Lama". The previous two titles were conferred posthumously upon his earlier incarnations. The title "Dalai Lama" is presently granted to each of the spiritual leader's sucessive incarnations (for example, The 14th Dalai Lama's next incarnation will hold the title "the 15th Dalai Lama"). Tibetans call the Dalai Lama Gyawa Rinpoche (rgya ba rin po che) meaning "Precious Victor," or Yeshe Norbu (ye shes nor bu) meaning "Wisdom Jewel". The 14th Dalai Lama, as well as each of his predecessors, are considered to be the incarnations of the Buddha of Compassion.

All Dalai Lamas are assumed to be an incarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara ... yes, the very same Guan Yin that Jn. has as her avatar.

I have no idea if this is true. All I know is that I hold the greatest respect for the present Dalai Lama.

One small correction, yov ... actually, one large correction

Buddhists do not believe in God.


# "Buddhism does not accept a theory of God, or a creator. According to Buddhism, one's own actions are the creator, ultimately. Some people say that, from a certain angle, Buddhism is not a religion but rather a science of mind. Religion has much involvement with faith. Sometimes it seems that there is quite a distance between a way of thinking based on faith and one entirely based on experiment, remaining skeptical. Unless you find something through investigation, you do not want to accept it as fact. From one viewpoint, Buddhism is a religion, from another viewpoint Buddhism is a science of mind and not a religion. Buddhism can be a bridge between these two sides. Therefore, with this conviction I try to have closer ties with scientists, mainly in the fields of cosmology, psychology, neurobiology and physics. In these fields there are insights to share, and to a certain extent we can work together."

# "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality. By learning from science about aspects of reality where its understanding may be more advanced, I believe that Buddhism enriches its own worldview."

From teachings of the Dalai Lama.

[vison]

Here's the banner ad running under the last post I see:

[Sassafras]

[Primula Baggins]

"Religous dogma"?

[Frelga]

It's Six Sigma Training Software now.


I'll come back to this thread when I read up on Jewish ideas of reincarnation. IIRC, some Jewish mysticists considered reincarnation as one of the afterlife scenario. IIRC2, in their view, reincarnation was limited to other humans and did not includeanimals, but I don't know much about it.

Me? I rather like the idea. I'd love for my soul to be present at my great-grandchildren's wedding, in one body or another.