Capital punishment

[anthriel]

OFF TOPIC, but I wonder sometimes if artie is simply a college Social Science experiment designed to study Holby.

May the Force be with him, if that is true.

since I have never committed nor intend to commit such a crime and therefore cannot personally testify as to the effectiveness of my theory as applied to those in question.

Oh, man, I am SO relieved. Now THERE'S a load off.

Great post, btw.

[elfshadow]

since I have never committed nor intend to commit such a crime and therefore cannot personally testify as to the effectiveness of my theory as applied to those in question.

Oh, man, I am SO relieved. Now THERE'S a load off.

Yeah, I thought about letting you guyz just sort of wonder about that in terror for a time, but I ultimately decided it was best to put your minds at ease.


And thank you.

[Holbytla]

I'm an enigma wrapped in a colloquial expression.
Study that and be dismayed.

[Crucifer]

However, I assume Crucifer means "learn it was wrong and act differently in the future."

Thank you for finishing my sentence, Frelga. It was late when I posted that, and I was a little hazy. Punishment teaches that an act is wrong, and that if you do that act, you will be punished. It is hopefully a deterrent. If someone doesn't realize this, or isn't affected by punishment, then there is a problem somewhere.

[The Watcher]

I am so fortunate, where I live, our state has a ban on capital punishment written into our state constitution, so it never has been an issue here, and we are fine with it just the way it is. We have had our share of terrible crime perpetrators, such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gien, etc., but, IMO opinion, most of these people are far more mentally ill than psychopathic, and even if they ARE psychopathic or sociopathic, I am all for life in prison without possibility for parole as a maximum sentence. One life taken by state sponsored death sentences is one life too many, and I know that the justice system is not designed to be infallible, but that is even MORE reason to want to avoid the death penalty. Again, IMO only, the death penalty is only retributive, and as a result, it is brutal, barbaric, and something that the 21st century can well do without. We do not stone or brand adulterers, we do not cut off hands of thieves, why should we need any reason to legally kill anyone? Human systems are going to be full of human foibles, and that is enough for me to always opt for the "what if" scenario to be revisited. Once a person has been executed, that option is gone forever.

I have not even brought up the obvious issues of racial and income disparity which grossly skew capital sentencing in far too many places in America today.

[anthriel]

How do you feel about Dahmer being killed in prison, Watcher?

I only ask because I am painfully aware that my emotions are not entirely consistent in regard to capital punishment. I feel it is all kinds of bizarre that the state will march a fully functional human being into a bright, sterile room, hook him or her up to an IV, and deliberately end their life. In the name of the law.

I still can't quite figure it out.

And yet when I hear about child molesters getting raped in jail, or people like Dahmer getting jailhouse justice, somehow that makes me, somewhere inside, say... well, they sure deserved it.

Sometimes I can't figure my own self out.

[Crucifer]

And yet when I hear about child molesters getting raped in jail, or people like Dahmer getting jailhouse justice, somehow that makes me, somewhere inside, say... well, they sure deserved it.

Who are we to say who deserves what?

[Primula Baggins]

We can certainly have an opinion that someone deserves punishment.

[Crucifer]

Yeah, but who are we to say who really deserves what, and to what extent?

[Holbytla]

How do you feel about Dahmer being killed in prison, Watcher?

I only ask because I am painfully aware that my emotions are not entirely consistent in regard to capital punishment. I feel it is all kinds of bizarre that the state will march a fully functional human being into a bright, sterile room, hook him or her up to an IV, and deliberately end their life. In the name of the law.

I still can't quite figure it out.

And yet when I hear about child molesters getting raped in jail, or people like Dahmer getting jailhouse justice, somehow that makes me, somewhere inside, say... well, they sure deserved it.

Sometimes I can't figure my own self out.

I would venture to say that you are in the majority of the population.


There was a gruesome murder around here some years ago.
It involved a 10 year old boy that was kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered.
Luckily they caught the killers pretty quickly, but that incident set off a firestorm on whether to reinstate the death penalty in this state.
The measure was brought up, but didn't pass It came very very close though, and in this liberal state that said a lot to me.

There are just times that you feel emotionally and morally different about certain cases.

If the public had had access to these villains, they would have surely been lynched.

Even though that would have been wrong, I would have felt better.

Some things should never be tolerated, and sometimes the punishment is deserved.

edit: tense and spelling

[MithLuin]

Anthy....you don't really feel that. Meaning, if you were standing there, watching those people get raped, you'd feel a lot differently about it. At least, I think so. It is one thing to say "serves them right" and another to be a guard who sets them up. You know?


Warning: the following story is very, very disturbing. Please do not read if graphic images disturb you.

My sister just spent a year in Honduras. While there, she lived in a school for teenage girls, and worked down the street at a medical clinic (she's a nurse). The girls all live in small villages outside the town. Last month, one of the 12 year old girls was home alone when three young men attempted to rape her and murdered her with a machete. Her ten year old brother came home while this was happening, and they killed him too. It was very brutal - his arm was cut off and her head was bashed in. The children's mother came home from her errand (she had been buying lemons) to find both of her children murdered.

This horrible tragedy rocked the town. Stuff like that just doesn't happen there. It was gang-related violence. The young men were trying to send a message to the children's father (who did not live there). The three men were caught by the police and taken to jail in the capital city. You do NOT want to go to jail in Honduras, it turns out.

After several weeks had gone by, the town was starting to recover. The mother of the children even said that the men should be forgiven for what they had done. But I suppose everyone knew about this national news, so the other people in the jail took care of it. The men were raped, killed, dismembered and the bodies were burned. In jail. Do not ask me how you can do all this in jail - I really don't want to know.

To me, both crimes are horrific. That is not justice served. As my sister put it, I am sure Jenni would not have wanted that done to her killers.


It has always puzzled me that a death sentance is an acceptable punishment, but castration is not. Surely it is more cruel and unusual to kill someone. Whether it would prevent sexual assaults or not, it still seems a more reasonable punishment (to me).

[Holbytla]

Is it more humane to keep someone encarcerated for life than execute them?
Is it better to wake up every day for 30, 40, 50, 60 years and live the agonized life of a murderer, or to be executed and have your sad existence ended?

I am not pro capital punishment, but I am not going to argue this on the merits of the punishment.

[Crucifer]

The problem with saying capital punishment is wrong is, as Holby says, finding an alternative that is humane.

But pointless, sensless waste of life?

Not today, thank you.

[elfshadow]

Yeah, but who are we to say who really deserves what, and to what extent?

Well, someone has to decide who deserves what and to what extent, otherwise our justice system doesn't really work.


Anthy, I don't think you're alone in feeling that at all. Because I feel it too, sometimes. I know that, like Mith pointed out, I would never want someone to suffer such "retribution" if I had to watch it. I don't think I could ever watch something like that without wanting to Oedipize my eyes. But still...some part of me deep down just feels vindicated when I hear that, say, a rapist has been beaten in prison. I know that it's horrible and wrong, and I feel that it's horrible and wrong. And yet--a little part of me just can't help but think that that person got what was coming to them. What goes around comes around, you know? The ultimate karma. However, I could never inflict such retribution on someone myself, nor do I think I could allow it to happen if I had any control over the situation.


ETA:

Is it better to wake up every day for 30, 40, 50, 60 years and live the agonized life of a murderer, or to be executed and have your sad existence ended?

No, I don't think it's better at all. In fact, that is one of the reasons I am mostly against the death penalty. The best punishment comes from your own mind, and that is something that life in prison allows while capital punishment often does not.

[Holbytla]

How do you deal with sociopaths then?

[elfshadow]

Lock them up so that there's no chance they can harm another human being, and in the meantime we should do the best that we can to see if they have a psychiatric condition that can be treated. If not, there's not much that the rest of society can do about them except keep them away from other people. But I would still hesitate to use death as a punishment, because I think it's better not to kill even a criminal if there are other alternatives.

[nerdanel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/nyreg ... ersey.html

Today, New Jersey became the first state in nearly four decades to abolish capital punishment. Regardless of your stance on the issue, this is a historic day - symbolically. Practically, it matters little, as NJ had not executed anyone in 43 years, did not have a lawful set of execution protocols on the books, had a mere 8 men on death row, and had seen virtually all of its recent death sentences overturned on appeal. But, as some commentators have noted, virtually the entire death penalty debate in this country is symbolic.

I think that my previous pro-death penalty stance has "softened" to a pro-moratorium/pro-living entombment (AKA LWOP)/pro-death-penalty-in-theory/pro-can-we-please-stop-giving-these-monsters-any-more-of-our-time-and-attention stance. To me, the greatest outrage of the death penalty is how much of our collective resources it consumes, when there are so many other causes and needy non-murderers demanding society's time, attention, and money. I have tired of the rhetoric on both sides re: the death penalty demonstrating "what kind of a society we are." There are many other wrongs that must be corrected to speak to what kind of a society we are, and (in my current judgment) one of the least of our concerns should be which of two horrendous fates our most horrific murderers should receive.

Of course, the need to safeguard against and redress wrongful convictions (whether the end result is DP or LWOP) continues - and THAT is a problem worthy of our time and attention. Although death row exonerations rightly command much of our attention, I'm also concerned about the people who spend 5, 10, 30, 50 years behind bars for crimes they did not commit (or commit as charged). I'm hopeful that today's decision in New Jersey clears the way to focus evenhandedly on all wrongful incarcerations, now that there isn't a "higher priority tier" of death row inmates.

[vison]

Good for the people of New Jersey.

Welcome to the 21st century.

[Maria]

Too bad.

One should always have the legal right to put the really rabid ones down.

[vison]

One thing about a ban on the death penalty is, it's no longer an option, and there is no fight about it. The convicted person cannot appeal the death sentence and the usual long, tortured waiting period is a thing of the past.

As for the "inhumanity" of long prison sentences: is a long sentence, in and of itself, inhumane when the alternative is execution? You will notice I don't say "capital punishment", since that is a misnomer. The punishment for ANY capital crime is what the law decides it is, it is not necessarily death. Using the term "capital punishment" implies, in a vague way, that the person will learn something from it. It may be "inhumane" to lock men up for life, but until someone can come up with a way to guarantee their release will present no danger to our society, then locked up they must be.

There are men whose crimes are so vile they deserve death, true enough. But don't we remember what Gandalf said?

If a murderer is himself murdered, it might be fitting, and I might even be "glad", but that doesn't mean I want Canada to kill criminals. Not all murders are the same, not all killers are Jeffrey Dahmers or Clifford Olsens. And since mistakes are so common, I think it's wise to err on the side of caution.