2020 Presidential Election

[elengil]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/ ... b535f4800d

A jarring new report from The Atlantic claims that the Trump campaign is discussing potential strategies to circumvent the results of the 2020 election, should Joe Biden defeat Donald Trump, by first alleging the existence of rampant fraud and then appointing electors in battleground states where Republicans maintain a legislative majority, whom Trump would ask to bypass the state’s popular vote and instead to choose electors loyal to the GOP and the sitting president.

...

Earlier this summer, Trump tweeted, "MAIL-IN VOTING WILL LEAD TO MASSIVE FRAUD AND ABUSE. IT WILL ALSO LEAD TO THE END OF OUR GREAT REPUBLICAN PARTY. WE CAN NEVER LET THIS TRAGEDY BEFALL OUR NATION." Later, in a Twitter post in July, Trump wrote, "With Universal Mail-In Voting, 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history."

[River]

They are too short-sighted to see that they are de-legitimizing any victory. Or they don't care if, should they win, their win is seen as legitimate.

I'm old enough to remember when absentee (aka mail-in) votes tilted Republican. I'm also old enough to remember that our current President votes by mail. And I'm under 40 so it's not like I'm remember an ancient before-time either.

[Cerin]

. . . it almost highlights Cerin's point, that there are two very different points of view in this country. Cerin expressed one, <snip>

No, I did not express one of these points of view. I observed that there were two competing points of view, and that the elite ruling class (Washington establishment, corporate America, the mainstream media, the entertainment industry, academia and well-educated urbanites) all represent the same one of those two competing points of view. That leaves the people without power or societal control representing the other point of view.

To me this entire argument over point of view leave the realm of politics entirely

I would say it is entirely in the realm of politics (public policy). If it were merely in the realm of philosophical meandering, it wouldn't matter.

it seems to be a shattering at the social level of what society should be, how it should be ordered, and who or what should be dominant.

Those are the questions politics (the formulation of public policy) seeks to answer.

But the Right either wants to ignore or is ignorant of the Left ALSO not wanting the Right's worldview being shoved down the throat of America as a whole, which has been going on for a long time!

Political dialogue doesn't equate to shoving down throats. Entertainment, academic indoctrination, corporate policy, social media policy -- these are the methods of societal force-feeding I'm talking about. Can you name any aspect of the mid-American worldview that has been presented in a positive light via these mainstream institutions? Of course not -- all of these institutions reflect and advance the ruling elite worldview because they are controlled by the ruling elite.

You want to make this a race between "Middle America" and "Ruling Elites" who only care about themselves?

I never suggested the ruling elite only care about themselves. They believe in their worldview with an evangelical fervor, as the way to spread good in the world.


Regarding your last post, Biden also has hundreds of lawyers working on ways to invalidate a Trump victory. No one is planning on conceding this election (Hilary to Biden: don't concede under any circumstances), and there are court rulings in swing states saying that votes may come in up to 9 days after election day; this virtually guarantees no result/projection on election night, which is an open invitation to violence. (By the way, the 2005 bi-partisan Commission on Federal Election Reform determined that mail-in voting presented the highest risk of potential voter fraud, so that is not something Trump is pulling out of his hat.)

[elengil]

Can you name any aspect of the mid-American worldview that has been presented in a positive light via these mainstream institutions? Of course not

Not terribly helpful to continued dialogue to pose a question and then answer it on my behalf.

[River]

I'm still waiting to find out what the elite worldview is. I have a doctorate in biochemistry and I run a R&D lab for a multinational biotech company so I assume this has something to do with how I supposedly see the worldand I'm getting a feeling it's not flattering but I feel like y'all are talking in some kind of code. Does it involve sex? Bathrooms? Some random culture war crap that lit up Twitter but has no impact at all on real problems like the mounting COVID death toll? Is there a pundit whose body of work I can refer to here?

[Túrin Turambar]

Like yov, I agree with Cerin. There are two worldviews in western countries, and the fact that one dominates in Hollywood, in the universities, and in corporate boardrooms makes it very easy for those immersed in it to forget that the other exists. And the divide is economic and cultural as much as it is political. There are some good books which touch on this subject – Joel Kotkin’s The Coming of Neo-Feudalism and David French’s recent Divided We Fall are two that I’ve read.

[Túrin Turambar]

I'm still waiting to find out what the elite worldview is. Does it involve sex? Bathrooms? Some random crap that lit up Twitter?

In general, support for globalisation and free trade, support for immigration, belief in the importance of formal higher education, hostility to religion, support for LGBT causes, hostility to guns, skepticism of outward displays of patriotism, among other things.

[elengil]

I'm still waiting to find out what the elite worldview is. Does it involve sex? Bathrooms? Some random crap that lit up Twitter?

In general, support for globalisation and free trade, support for immigration, belief in the importance of formal higher education, hostility to religion, support for LGBT causes, hostility to guns, skepticism of outward displays of patriotism, among other things.

I am at a loss as to how this squares with the idea that the other side of these views are somehow forgotten by anyone, given that about half of the US government does not align with the above list.

[Túrin Turambar]

But it is challenging to find people who subscribe to them in institutions of cultural and economic power, like Hollywood studios, the boardrooms of Fortune 500 countries, or the faculties of the largest and most prestigious universities.

[elengil]

But it is challenging to find people who subscribe to them in institutions of cultural and economic power, like Hollywood studios, the boardrooms of Fortune 500 countries, or the faculties of the largest and most prestigious universities.

To test this theory I looked up the political spending of major executives. There was more spending and by more execs towards Republicans than Democrats - which means there is more support among those people for Republican causes, which seems to refute the idea that they overwhelmingly hold the views you listed or that it would be a challenge to find them.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ceos- ... 2018-10-18

Alternately, Hollywood does give far more to Democrats than republicans
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... ms-1151392

"Faculties of the largest and most prestigious universities" seems like a bit of a no-brainer why they would tout the importance of formal higher education, and it likewise makes sense those who strongly support higher education would go on to be part of those universities. Though I recognize what you are probably saying is that because they tend to favor certain views, it stands to reason that people who attend these universities must likewise either have or are forced to adopt these views.

I will point out again we have about half of the government - who would have attended some of the largest most prestigious universities - taking the opposing view from those you stated, which means that even if these institutions are run by by those of a certain ideology they certainly are not merely churning out little clones of themselves. Further, a study in 2008 showed these institutions did not affect the students' leanings outside of that of the general public

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... n_students

Some institutions favor some of the views you stated, some do not. It does not appear to hold up that all of these institutions are by default holding to your list of views or that this constitutes a singular conglomerate of elite rulers that is in opposition to the "average" American worldview.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The idea that the BLM movement, support for LGBT causes, or other efforts to help raise up people who have been traditionally trampled all over by the white, male, straight dominant paradigm are part of some kind of elite worldview is the single most ludicrous concept that I have ever heard. It is just the opposite.

[Túrin Turambar]

Some institutions favor some of the views you stated, some do not. It does not appear to hold up that all of these institutions are by default holding to your list of views or that this constitutes a singular conglomerate of elite rulers that is in opposition to the "average" American worldview.

It is not a singular conglomerate, nor am I trashing these views as I hold them myself. But there is a correlation. The parts of the U.S. responsible for around two-thirds of GDP growth, and hence two-thirds of wealth gain, voted for Clinton in 2016.

The idea that the BLM movement, support for LGBT causes, or other efforts to help raise up people who have been traditionally trampled all over by the white, male, straight dominant paradigm are part of some kind of elite worldview is the single most ludicrous concept that I have ever heard. It is just the opposite.

Yes, but you're not a Trump voter. The position Cerin has put forward matches what I read from Trump supporters in the comments sections of articles I look at online.

People can accept or reject the arguments Cerin has put forward. But if you reject them, then you can't act surprised if working- and middle-class white people vote for Trump again this year.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not talking about perception, I'm talking about reality.

Meanwhile, Republican Inquiry Finds No Evidence of Wrongdoing by Biden

Nice try, guys.

[Frelga]

What exactly is this "elite worldview" you speak of and how is it being "shoved down throats"?

Usually, that means Jews, but I guess it has expanded to mean all not Evangelicals.

As Twitter says, don't @ me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here is a good article at 538 about the so-called shy Trump supporters.

Trump Supporters Aren’t ‘Shy,’ But Polls Could Still Be Missing Some Of Them

[yovargas]

It was very interesting to me, while reading about the rise of communism in Russia early last century, to note that the movement, which purported to be about lifting up the oppressed working class, found almost all of its original following and leadership amongst educated, higher class individuals and very little from the actual working class. That movement started off, and very much became, an elite ran enterprise in support of the little guy. Hmm.

[River]

The idea that the BLM movement, support for LGBT causes, or other efforts to help raise up people who have been traditionally trampled all over by the white, male, straight dominant paradigm are part of some kind of elite worldview is the single most ludicrous concept that I have ever heard. It is just the opposite.

Well if you can't be better than "those people" who can you be better than?

Hollywood does what it does because it sells. Corporations do what they do in advertising campaigns because it sells. The US population has been nucleating around urban areas for decades now. The shift is in my own family's history: my parents both grew up on farms in the Midwest. My siblings and I were born in one coastal city and then, before I started the sixth grade, we moved across the country to another coastal city. It is possible, is it not, that the "elite" and "urban" viewpoints are prevalent because they are...wait for it...popular and reflective of the majority of the population? Trump did lose the popular vote, after all.

[elengil]

People can accept or reject the arguments Cerin has put forward. But if you reject them, then you can't act surprised if working- and middle-class white people vote for Trump again this year.

At some point, however, you can't appeal to voters who fundamentally disagree with your position on issues without fundamentally changing your position. Just like the Right can't be surprised when the Left does not vote for Trump, no matter what they want to blame it on - voter fraud, or Trump Derangement Syndrome, or American-hating libs - if they likewise reject the counter arguments.

[Frelga]

It was very interesting to me, while reading about the rise of communism in Russia early last century, to note that the movement, which purported to be about lifting up the oppressed working class, found almost all of its original following and leadership amongst educated, higher class individuals and very little from the actual working class. That movement started off, and very much became, an elite ran enterprise in support of the little guy. Hmm.

What are you reading? Because that's not an accurate statement.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

When I read that, I knew it was time to withdraw from this discussion.