Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Alatar]

Regarding Fairytale of New York, SHane McGowan has issued a statement

"The word was used by the character because it fitted with the way she would speak and with her character,” he wrote.

"She is not supposed to be a nice person, or even a wholesome person. She is a woman of a certain generation at a certain time in history and she is down on her luck and desperate. Her dialogue is as accurate as I could make it but she is not intended to offend! She is just supposed to be an authentic character and not all characters in songs and stories are angels or even decent and respectable, sometimes characters in songs and stories have to be evil or nasty in order to tell the story effectively,” he continued.

The musician said that he is “absolutely fine” with the word being censored and added that he doesn’t want to get into an argument.

Nonetheless, RTE (Ireland's National Broadcaster) have said they will continue to broadcast it uncensored.

[elengil]

It isn't just her, either.

Her: You're a bum, you're a punk
Him: You're an old slut on junk
Lying there almost dead
On a drip in that bed

Her: You scum-bag, you maggot
You cheap, lousy faggot
Merry Christmas your arse
I pray god it's our last

It's a rather abusive relationship, certainly. But then, it isn't being portrayed as anything but.

Both slut and faggot are certainly being used as pointedly derogatory terms, not simply being used in another context (as in cigarette or bundle of sticks.) And I'm sure there are plenty of places that won't play the song for good reason. I personally enjoy the Pogues and their less than savory lyrics at times, but I would not feel the slightest bit of outrage at their songs being either not played at all or censored on the radio. I have the album.

[Maria]

As I was leaving for work this morning, our elderly cat asked to be let out. Since it was 15F , I picked him up and carried him away from the door singing, "Kitty it's cold outside...."

[Lalaith]

Maria,



Apropos...

[Maria]

Ok, that's funny, Lali!

I just got done watching "Neptune's Daughter" the movie that clip I posted above came from.

I'm kind of flabbergasted. The movie was made in 1949, so it's contemporary with the song, which was written a few years before. The film is a romantic comedy, and is full of songs and dancing and a hefty dose of slapstick humor.

What's really weird is that the "Baby It's Cold Outside" song doesn't fit the rest of the movie at all. For one thing, the movie is set in southern California- so all that talking about blizzards and freezing hands and catching pneumonia is just silliness.

And I had thought that those two scenes in the youtube above were from different films. Nooooo, they are from the same film and no gap between them! It just switches from one couple to the other and they take over singing. Since there's a case of mistaken identity going on, it's actually kind of a neat contrast.

The romances weren't creepy at all.... but the relationship between the woman's business partner was. Too much touching!!!! Back off dude! She doesn't want you!

Anyway, it wasn't a bad film. Just not sci fi... therefore mostly just weird for me.

[Cerin]

Alatar, thank you for posting the link to 'Fairytale of New York.' The song is really beautiful. Anyone deeming it unsuitable has totally missed the spirit of the piece, imo.

The two scenes from the movies were fun to watch, because of the skill involved. It seems to me that the first woman is flirting while listing the reasons she shouldn't stay; her body language says that she is interested in the man. In today's culture, I hope most women would mean 'no' when they say 'no', and not look and act as though they mean yes. That's the most jarring and inappropriate aspect of the song for our day and age, imo. Because I don't think you can blame this man for continuing to press his case, he's getting a mixed message.

I can understand stations deciding not to play the song, even though, from what I know of music of this era, the woman will be singing with a smile in her voice and it will be clear that they are playing a mutually understood game. But the song is quite shocking in today's context, so I get why they've decided not to play it.

Then lets take that example. What if all book stores felt under pressure to remove Laura Ingalls Wilders books off the shelves? Or Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn?

Would that be acceptable? Or lets say they didn't feel under pressure. They just unilaterally decided that depictions of racism had no place on their shelves in an enlightened world?

What if Theatres felt they couldn't perform Showboat, or South Pacific? TV Networks would no longer show Gone with the Wind?

Sadly, I think we probably are heading in that direction. I think it's the bullying power of the internet at work. No one wants to risk going viral on the incorrect side of the political fence.

[Primula Baggins]

A tweet I came across tonight:

Twenty years from now, kids listening to "Baby it's cold outside" are gonna find it really, really weird.

We're gonna have to explain that it has to be understood in the context of its time.

You see, it used to get cold outside.
247 replies 26,714 retweets 150,129 likes

[Túrin Turambar]

OK, I've got one to discuss.

Last night I was watching a Latin dancing competition, and the owner of the school hosting it announced (from off to the side): “Remember, the prize is an unlimited pass for next year, you can come as many times and do as many classes as you want…[pause]…OK, my Jewish business partner has just reminded me that the pass is only for term one, not the entire year.” There was some laughter from the audience but no other reaction.

This reminds me of an incident which happened in Melbourne late last year, when football personality Eddie McGuire was doing talkback radio. He said, in response to a comment by a caller, “So you have a Jewish father and a Scottish mother ... I reckon it would have been hard getting pocket money from them!”

In response, the Chair of the Anti-Defamation Commission accused McGuire of anti-Semitism, saying “denigrating any group by implying that they are stingy and cheap is always inappropriate and never funny”.

Obviously the problem was with directing the comment at the Jews rather than the Scots (and as his name suggests, he’s of Scottish background). Jokes about penny-pinching Scots abound and don’t seem to cause any problems. Of course, I do appreciate that the stereotype of stingy Scots hasn’t been used to justify persecution and violence in the same manner as the stereotype of stingy Jews. And I can’t say I’m as concerned about people not being allowed to make jokes in the same way I am about people not being allowed to offer legitimate comment on political and social issues because of the risk of causing offence. But to me, it does seem like an over-reaction.

[River]

So what's interesting about that, on reflection, is how in the US we just don't make jokes about penny-pinching Scots or Jews in public anymore. In fact, I haven't heard much of that in private either. In the latter case it's considered anti-Semitic and only people too old to know better or the preteen 2edgey4me set can get away with it. In the case of Scots I dunno, I guess the stereotype just evaporated somehow and now no one under the age of 60 would get it. Unless they're a Scottish tourist. Or, as my uncle over 60 discovered, you're in Scotland. Then you might get an earful (turns out Scots don't like the stereotype and it has its roots in anti-Scots sentiments among the English).

There's also the possibility that, in the US, being a complete tightwad just transcends all ethnic boundaries.

[yovargas]

I have no idea that stingy Scots was a stereotype at all. That one is totally new to me.

[Sunsilver]

Yov, what rock have you been hiding under?

One of my favourite jokes involves a Scotsman, an Englishman and an Irishman, all of whom find a fly in their beer. It's an old Dave Allen joke, but that's going back to the 1970's. And yes, the Scot is stingy. He holds the fly over his beer by the wings, and demands "Spit it oot, man, spit it oot!"

A lot of Dave's stuff was definitely NOT P.C. He was Irish, and wasn't afraid to make jokes about them, either. He'd studied to be a Catholic priest, then changed his mind. The church was also a frequent target of his humour.

I'm a Christian, and mainly Irish and Scottish by ancestry, but I still found him very funny. And there's times when I ask myself, "Have we become TOO politically correct?"

I'm sure the owner of the dance school knew his business partner well enough to know he wouldn't take offence at the comment.

I think the current censoring of "Baby, It's Cold Outside" is an example of taking political correctness too far. Sure, the lyrics can be taken as a man not allowing a woman to say 'no' to his advances. But the song is 70 years old. Do we want to censor old movies for not being PC? I had to stop watching Fred Aistaire's movie "Silk Stockings" the other day because the women in it were so obviously just there as decoration/love interests. But that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be able to enjoy it for the dancing and music.

If no obvious offence is meant, can't we let some of these things slide? Sure, we want to do better than they did in the old days, but going back and censoring some of these things makes no sense to me. Do we ban Huck Finn because the movie uses the 'n' word?

[elengil]

Wow, that was supposed to be a stingy joke? I always thought it was meant to cast them as alcoholics.

Anyway, I find it's hard to argue making fun of a group when the person is part of that group. It's much different from making fun of a group that you are not part of.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Of course, I do appreciate that the stereotype of stingy Scots hasn’t been used to justify persecution and violence in the same manner as the stereotype of stingy Jews.

While I don't think it is okay to perpetuate the stereotype about Scots, this is an important distinction.

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[Sunsilver]

elingil, it was ONLY beer. And the joke featured an Englishman, who was typecast as being very neat and formal, and an Irishman who was stereotyped as rough and uncouth.

[elengil]

What I mean is not understanding the basis of the joke in one stereotype, I mistook it for meaning something else.

[Túrin Turambar]

It never occurred to me that the stereotype of penny-pinching Scots wouldn’t be a thing anywhere in the English-speaking world. But maybe it’s more of a Commonwealth thing. It’s still pretty common here and on British TV.

Speaking of which, there might also be a cultural difference where humour using stereotypes of groups is more acceptable in the Commonwealth than the U.S. (or Canada, which culturally can follow the U.S. more than the rest of the Commonwealth). Particularly in Australia, which probably itself feeds into the stereotype that Australians are racist, homophobic rednecks, giving rise to more stereotype humour in something of a feedback loop.



(I’ve always really liked this sketch)

[Primula Baggins]

Oh, Lord, yes, a classic. At the Python level of taste. They aimed at just about everyone at some point.

[Impenitent]

Well, I cringe at that 'joke' every time.
Jews are stingy, money-grubbing, cheating, thieving money-lenders.
My son, who would - and has - given his last dollar to someone begging in the street, has been denigrated as 'such a jew'. He is a Jew. A Jew who doesn't give a shit about wealth and whose great grandparents were murdered by people who perpetuated these kinds of calumnies with purpose.
It's used in the playground by primary school kids who have no idea what a Jew is but when they meet one will have ready-made mould prepared by years of unwitting propaganda into which to fit that person.
Jews are money-grubbing
Scots are penny-pinching
Irish are stupid
Pakkies smell
N***rs are monkeys
All these are founded in the propaganda of the majority at a time of political conflict to dehumanise the minority to make them easier to kill.
Some of these denigrating stereotypes STILL kill.
It's not political correctness.

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

[Lalaith]

I have no idea that stingy Scots was a stereotype at all. That one is totally new to me.

Scrooge McDuck, e.g.

Scrooge_McDuck.png (69.7 KiB) Viewed 5981 times

That made me wonder if there's a call to get rid of this character anywhere. (I don't see one at a quick glance.)

And this was interesting (in-trest-ing, if anyone is keeping track):

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2 ... -as-cheap/

(I didn't know that about Scotch tape!)

These types of quips are not uncommon in my family but steer more toward the Jewish comments rather than the Scottish. My own mother will make racist comments about my dad (who is thrifty), calling him "a Jew" or "Lindner-stein." (For context, my mom is the one who is Scottish, and my dad is not, nor is he Jewish*. And these comments make me very sad and angry, for the record.)

When I read a post like impy's, it really brings home how hurtful those comments are and how they have been used to harm groups of people.

I think we do and say so many things without realizing how they can affect others, and that can get overwhelming at times, like, "Sheesh, is there anything left to say or joke about?" But I don't know. It's not funny if it hurts someone.

I am reminded of Maya Angelou's famous quote:

Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.





*Although I did come up with some Jewish ancestry on my DNA test, so who knows?

[River]

I think we do and say so many things without realizing how they can affect others, and that can get overwhelming at times, like, "Sheesh, is there anything left to say or joke about?"

I hear that around and wonder why so many people are lacking in creativity (this is not a dig at anyone here, BTW). The world is full of absurd stuff to poke fun at.