All Talked Out - Debates Over - Who Won?

[Holbytla]

To be fair Anthy, I think it was you who said the part about McCain and the POW camp. I should have credited that to you.

[Frelga]

You like what you like I guess, and different things appeal to different people. There is something to be said for someone that did as much for his country. McCain wasn't making policy during Vietnam. He was just a soldier doing what he thought was right. He gave himself to his country. I can't fault him for that.

Well, yes, he is a soldier. And he came across as a soldier last night. Fight or flight. Victory or dishonor. Friend or enemy. Do we really need a soldier in charge of the United States? Obama certainly showed the ability to see the big picture, recognize different sides, and place issues in context.

It is proper to honor McCain for what he has done in the war, but the qualities that make a heroic POW are not necessarily the ones that make a successful President. Maybe he could make a good a Secretary of State.

And on a tangent, while I revere honor and courage in a personal, Tolkienesque context, I cringe every time a politician utters those words.

[Cerin]

Regarding the McCain and Obama ads Voronwë linked to, I agree that the Obama ad is effective and the McCain ad is not. I don't see how showing Obama agreeing to a few correct statements by another person leads to the conclusion that he is not ready to lead. It's just nonsense.

I think it would have been possible for Obama to agree to those various points without mentioning McCain's name. Perhaps he'll practice such variations for the next debate.

[Holbytla]

I'll take it a step further and say he has been a public servant all of his life. I do believe he loves his country and wants what is best for it.

Do we really need a soldier in charge of the United States?

Need? No, but most of them have been soldiers and whoever wins will be the Commander in Chief. There is an aspect of the job in which being a soldier helps.

Having said that, I disagree with McCain on his Iraq stance. I never thought that war could ever be won. Not ever and not by anyone. Defeating a country and having a successful occupation aren't the same thing.

I side more with Obama, but I don't feel any need to discredit McCain. Can't help but admire some of the things he stands for.

[Primula Baggins]

Prim, I've seen you write this a couple of times, now. Do you remember where it was that you heard this?

Anthy, treat it as gossip. I've read it a couple of places, but not sites I know enough about to guarantee their credibility (so I would rather not dig up the links). I give it credence because it fits what I've been able to learn about her past career, and what I've seen in her press interviews, but you're not under any obligation to do so.

And, about McCain, what Frelga said. I don't think what we need now is a soldier as president, even the bravest. We need an intelligent, flexible thinker who can see more than one way out of a crisis. I see that in Obama; I don't see it in McCain.

[Holbytla]

Regarding the McCain and Obama ads Voronwë linked to, I agree that the Obama ad is effective and the McCain ad is not. I don't see how showing Obama agreeing to a few correct statements by another person leads to the conclusion that he is not ready to lead. It's just nonsense.

Those ads aren't intended for people following the election and who have made up their mind. Those ads are designed to give quick, effective, catchy sound bites to people who don't follow politics.

That ad will sway some people. I've seen it happen. People vote for people based on pretty silly thinjs some of the time.

When McCain announced Palin as his running mate, a guy at work announced that he was definitely voting for McCain because Palin was hot and shoots guns.

[Frelga]

When McCain announced Palin as his running mate, a guy at work announced that he was definitely voting for McCain because Palin was hot and shoots guns.

Yes, that's the problem with democracy.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I side more with Obama, but I don't feel any need to discredit McCain. Can't help but admire some of the things he stands for.

I agree, Holby. And there were times last night when the person that I admired a lot in 2000 (and really up until he started moving to the right as he ramped up his current campaign) really shined through. I do think that he genuinely loves America and want to serve it as best he can, and that his service and sacrifice should always be honored and never forgotten. Although I am firmly in the camp of those who have eloquently talked about how we need the kind of stateman that Obama is showing himself able to be rather than the soldier that we all know McCain is, I'm thankful to those of you who remind us of that.

Now I am going to add a sensitive additional factor to the issue of Obama's courteous, respectful treatment of McCain, one that I expect some might disagree with. But as a black man, Obama is faced with particular pitfalls that previous candidates simply have not faced. The one thing that he can not be perceived as (if wants to have any chance of winning the election) is as an "angry black man." That would be fatal to his candidacy, in my opinion. So he needs to walk a very thin line. He needs to show that he can be strong, and stand up for himself, but without coming across as angry. I thought he did a good job of walking that line last night.

[Holbytla]

You know until you just mentioned it, I never even thought about any racial aspects of the debate. I suppose he does have to walk a fine line.

Well no. He shouldn't have to walk a fine line, but in all reality he will have to if he wants to get elected.

[Frelga]

I don't recall if this has been posted: FactCheck.org: FactChecking Debate No. 1 It appears fairly evenhanded, if not quite comprehensive.

[vison]

Voronwë, that's what I meant when I said he had to be perfect. I think his manner, and his manners, are an integral and sincere part of his personality, but I also think he knows better than anyone else how he will be seen if he gets angry. I would be willing to bet he's been aware of it for a very long time, and has learned how to get along in this world thereby.

McCain is famous for his temper. I had the distinct impression that he was under rigid control in that debate.

[Primula Baggins]

I had the distinct impression that he was furious in that debate. Yes, under tight control, but furious.

[anthriel]

Holby: Not to worry! You did say it much better.

Prim: I understand! I just wondered if there were something we could look at that would show Palin to be incurious or slow to learn. I'm not sure how we could investigate her level of curiosity, but the slow to learn tag was odd, to me. She sure has come a long way in a short time, and I would think someone with learning issues would not have been able to accomplish quite so much, quite so fast.

As to Obama not being the "angry black man"... whoa. You are all right. I think that if he were to lose control it would be a stake in the heart of his campaign.

That said, control seems to come easily for him. He does seem a more cordial, thoughtful, graceful candidate, overall. I hope that counts to the voters; I think it will count to other nations.

[Primula Baggins]

She's come a long way in a short time, but this is the big leagues and she can't have come into this candidacy already knowing much of what she needed to know.

I should not have said "slow to learn"—maybe just "not amazingly quick to learn," because that's what she needed to be, to come close to mastering everything she needs to know by Thursday. The Couric interview segments indicated to me that Palin still had some distance to go at that point. As I said earlier, maybe she'll still get there in time.

[Holbytla]

I maintain that the Palin pick was a masterful stroke by McCain. She has totally bought a sinking campaign a lot of time and it seems she is the only thing people want to talk about.

Maybe I am in the minority, but honestly this is so blown out of proportion. George Bush won the election with Dan Quayle as his running mate. Really she has had far more press than warranted. It is all a meaningless distraction and it has worked supremely well.

People are feeding into the silliness of it all. Let her fade into the background where she belongs.

[Cerin]

McCain just said to George Stephanopolous that not only was it not intentional that he did not look at Obama, but it wasn't true, that he did not look at Obama.

So if it was an intentional, calculated decision, they're not owning it. If it wasn't, and McCain was being truthful and sincere this morning, then he wasn't aware of the impression he was giving.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's interesting, Cerin. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

Holby, the McCain campaign has (in my opinion) themselves fed the frenzy by treating Palin so differently than any previous VP candidate in the modern era. Because they have so limited her media access, the few interviews that she has done have become much bigger media events. If they had just let her be, I think there is a greater liklihood that the boost that McCain got from her selection would have lasted longer.

But that is all politics. Like many other people (liberals and conservatives alike) I am gravely concerned at the prospect of Palin becoming president. She does not display the knowledge, experience or temperment that I think a president needs to have.

[sauronsfinger]

Its one thing to completely distort the position of your opponent in ad after ad and in speech after speech hoping to get away with it ... but when you take a 90 minute videotaped record of an event and then try to change reality, you really have gone down the rabbit hole into another world.

McCain is actually going to say he looked at Obama when the whole world saw it otherwise? Unbelievable.

Its funny how little things like body language and manner can mean so much more to many people than the content of a persons words or the positions they take. Somebody like myself does not like McCain so I did not pay attention to his physical presence and instead concentrated on his words trying to pick them apart and attack his positions. My college debate training did not serve me well

[Holbytla]

She isn't running for president. She was picked to draw attention to the McCain campaign and so far it has worked exceedingly well.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

She isn't running for president. She was picked to draw attention to the McCain campaign and so far it has worked exceedingly well.

No, she is not running for the president. But the chances of her becoming president without ever being elected to that office would be quite high if McCain were to win the election.