All Talked Out - Debates Over - Who Won?

[Frelga]

I agree, V. It was such a huge opening, and no one even caught it.

I am sorely disenchanted with McCain.

On another wave, it amused that he concedes that US ambassador might talk to Iran. Well, that's nice. That's kinda the point of having an ambassador, no?

[Primula Baggins]

I suspect Palin's problem is that they couldn't leave her alone—she's going to be responsible for knowing or at least appearing to know an awful lot at this debate (never mind what will be expected of her if she takes office). And it's quite evident that she does not know these things—she knows what she needed to know to govern a small town and then a sparsely populated state; nothing about national security or foreign affairs or domestic policy beyond the state level.

I've heard that she's incurious and not a fast learner, so she's probably starting from a position of knowing less than another person with her experience might know.

It does seem clear that the result of the cramming has been overload—that she can string together bits she remembers but hasn't had time to sort them out so that she can talk about them in an intelligent and knowledgeable way. It's got to be tough on her.

Maybe she'll get it figured out by Thursday.

I think you are right. But I think (I would have to watch it again to be sure) that Obama bears some of the blame for not pushing back harder on that point, and turning it around to make McCain look like the one who didn't know what he was talking about (as was in fact the case). But maybe that would not have been possible.

Was this perhaps the question where he tried hard to get a correction in, but when it became clear that Lehrer wanted to move on, he acquiesced?

[sauronsfinger]

Regarding ratings: this from something called The Live Feed

http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/09/debate-ratings.html

The first debate between John McCain and Barack Obama is on track to pull a surprisingly average viewership number, drawing fewer households in the preliminary ratings than George W. Bush's face off against John Kerry four years ago.
In the meter-market overnights, Friday night's 90-minute debate in Mississippi received a preliminary household rating of 33.2, according to Nielsen Media Research.
That's 16% lower than the national number from the 2004 debate, which aired on a Thursday -- generally TV's most-watched night of the week. Friday's number is only slightly above George W. Bush and Al Gore's first debate in 2000 and the Clinton-Dole debate in 1996.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's exactly why I said I would need to watch it again to be sure, Prim. Because that was what was in my head.

But you know, for all the complaints that some democrats have made about Obama being too polite, and saying he agreed with McCain too often, I thought that was among his best qualities. I WANT to have a president who can both stand up for himself and be gracious and courteous as well. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

[sauronsfinger]

V- but do you want a CANDIDATE who says " You're right" or a variation of it eight times in 90 minutes?

There is a place for everything in its time. I do not thing debate is the time to be so magnamimous. Polite, possibly.

I suspect we will NOT hear than from Senator Obama too much from here on out.

[Frelga]

But you know, for all the complaints that some democrats have made about Obama being too polite, and saying he agreed with McCain too often, I thought that was among his best qualities. I WANT to have a president who can both stand up for himself and be gracious and courteous as well. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

Again, I agree with you. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we are in a minority.

Bipartisanship is more than just "reaching across the isle" to find people who agree with you. It's reaching out to people who disagree with you and finding middle ground. Given how divided American public is, isn't that a vital quality in a President? Yesterday, Obama displayed that quality, McCain demonstrated a glaring (actually, eye-averting) lack of it.

Here's an interesting blog entry. In my increasingly-painful attempt to be fair, I will discard the second photo - anyone can look weird in one shot. But the first picture does speak volumes. It looks like Obama is consoling a sore loser.

OK, never mind, I can no longer be considered undecided or impartial. Frelga for Obama!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There wasn't a single time that Obama said that McCain was right or some variation of that that made me wince or that I disagreed with in any way. Was it the best politics? Probably not. Are you correct that his advisors will try to steer him away from that. Maybe. But I think it would be a mistake to do so. There is an interesting juxtaposition of the two threads of discussion that are going on here, about Obama and about Palin. Some have made the point (and I agree) that part of why she has come across so badly in some of these interviews, compared to her previous debates and interviews and such, is because the McCain campaign's handlers have stuffed her so full of information and tried to get her to be something that she is not. If they just let her be who she is, I am sure she would come across much better. Those of us that disagree with her about the issues would still disagree with her, but she would not seem so inarticulate, at the very least. I think the same is true about Obama. He has gotten to where he is from being a "different kind of politician" and I think he should stick with that, and not try to be someone who he is not.

To put in Tolkienesque terms, I think he is much better off continuting to be Faramir rather than trying to be Boromir.

[Primula Baggins]

This was in some sense Obama's audition for the presidency in front of a lot of people who knew little about him. I think the courtesy and calmness helped Obama, especially after a week of inconsistent statements and surprising behavior from McCain. Obama may have "won" the debate, at least with the people who were polled about it, because he was able to project himself as the safer choice of the two, in contrast to the way McCain tried to portray him.

[Cerin]

But I think (I would have to watch it again to be sure) that Obama bears some of the blame for not pushing back harder on that point, and turning it around to make McCain look like the one who didn't know what he was talking about (as was in fact the case). But maybe that would not have been possible.

There were many instances when I emotionally would have liked a push back, but I think it's always tricky to try that, and maybe not worth the results. I recall reading an article recently, where someone mentioned this in reference to campaign tactics. They said, ex., that it wasn't worth making an ad contradicting the statement that McCain was a reformer, because in the end it would just reinforce the original idea that he is a reformer. That's why I think it was probably best that Obama left the 'he doesn't understand's alone.

But you know, for all the complaints that some democrats have made about Obama being too polite, and saying he agreed with McCain too often, I thought that was among his best qualities. I WANT to have a president who can both stand up for himself and be gracious and courteous as well. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

I also reacted favorably to these instances. They didn't register as being so numerous at the time. I think the effect was to show that Obama is above the usual gamesmanship.

[Frelga]

Actually, now I think, the "I agree" was probably a good idea. Of course, Republican pundits seized on that, but they are not the target, independents are (hi Anthy! ). And to them, it just might be reassuring that Obama is not that far from McCain on the issues where they might agree with McCain, while he is closer to them on things like healthcare, education and so on.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'd be curious to hear what our more centrist types thought of that. Not just Anthy, but yov, Maria, Faramond, Griffy (I know you can't vote, but I always find your views interesting), Holby, etc.

[Holbytla]

I'm not sure it has anything to do with politics at all beyond being a poor debate tactic. Which I am sure Obama has been told repeatedly by his campaign. You don't want to help your opponent out at all. It may appear polite, but him saying "you are right" may give the wrong impression to some people.

I think we pretty much all know that these guys are going to do what it takes to win. Seen the ad campaigns? So why abandon that approach now?

I am sure that is Obama's natural tendency and I am not going to read too much into it especially since he followed up with "but" or something similar. As in, "No there isn't anything wrong with pink dresses, but you look awful in it." The "but" belies the previous statement.
And I think that is how many people see it. For what it was.

It is just poor debating form to say your opponent is right about anything. There are other polite ways to do that, and in fact saying nothing in that place is probably the best.

It's a bad habit he should break.

I noticed that Obama wanted to talk to McCain and that McCain wanted to speak to Obama through Lehrer. To me that is an experienced politician's move. Don't even recognize your opponent. Give him nothing at all. And certainly never say you are right.

I think it was these tactics along with the hammering on "Senator Obama doesn't understand" that made the debate as close as it was.
"That isn't just naive, it is dangerous" was a stinging blow I thought, so all of these things added up sent a message to some people. Maybe some people that were tottering towards a McCain vote. Maybe not someone that was totally unsure, but maybe the people that were just about ready to vote for McCain.

McCain is a lot of things and one of those things is experience. That came through last night. McCain is a long time "service for your country " guy and that came through last night. Though a masterful and pretty much lifelong politician, McCain strikes me as a guy that has wanted to serve his country all of his life. Not someone that is only looking to further his own end. That appeals to a lot of people and that came through last night. McCain was relating his story and that helps people know him and understand him. He becomes real and not just a talking head.

It would do Obama well to realize some of these things and adopt them. Tell people who you are, relate to them. Expose your opponent and don't help him with his spin.

[vison]

I noticed that Obama wanted to talk to McCain and that McCain wanted to speak to Obama through Lehrer. To me that is an experienced politician's move. Don't even recognize your opponent. Give him nothing at all. And certainly never say you are right.

Well, I gotta disagree with you on this. I think Mr. Obama's courtesy and lack of confrontation will tell in the end. Not only did he look at McCain when he spoke to him, he looked calmly into the camera when he was speaking to the viewers. No posturing. There were a number of comments today saying that McCain's behavior was an attempt to demean Obama, not defeat him, and I think that's spot on.

McCain might as well have pulled out his hanky and started sobbing when he was talking about the veterans. That kind of thing turns my stomach, and it would no matter who was doing it.

He's not a very appealing persona, but he did very well, considering.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Holby, I do agree with a lot of what you say, but not about McCain's refusal to look at Obama, and Obama's willingness to engage McCain directly. Not just because of the courtesy that it showed, but also because it showed that he was willing to directly confront an adversary.

Take a look at Obama's (in my opinion quite effective) ad that he put out today regarding the debate:

Zero ad

In the clip, Obama starts out talking to us, then turns and addresses McCain to call him out on not doing anything for us (us being the middle-class) and then looks back at us. The impression left is that he is on our side, and willing to take our case to his adversary (which of course implies that McCain is our adversary). Very effective, I think.

Here, in contrast, is McCain's ad, focusing on Obama's agreeing with him:

'McCain is Right' ad

Does anyone think that this is going to be effective with swing voters? Anyone who saw the debate knows that the "buts" were left out, and even those who didn't see it will probably assume it. There is nothing particularly offensive about this ad, I just don't think it is particularly effective.

[Holbytla]

Obama has the better stage presence and the camera likes him better than McCain. Consider McCain is early 70's and Obama is 47.
I am guessing tha Obama would have suffered some loss of appeal if he had spent 5 years in a POW camp.

You like what you like I guess, and different things appeal to different people. There is something to be said for someone that did as much for his country. McCain wasn't making policy during Vietnam. He was just a soldier doing what he thought was right. He gave himself to his country. I can't fault him for that.

edit:Xposted with Voronwë
No I am sure the not looking was a predefined tactic. Effective or not, I have no idea. It just spoke to me of someone not giving an inch or even recognizing the opponent. Not making him a personal or rather personalizing him. He was an opponent at that point and not a person. Probably why he used Senator Obama instead of Barack.

[Mrs.Underhill]

Here's an interesting blog entry. In my increasingly-painful attempt to be fair, I will discard the second photo - anyone can look weird in one shot. But the first picture does speak volumes. It looks like Obama is consoling a sore loser.

Vow, a very insightful piece! And I wouldn't discard the second photo, because it only reflects the dynamic at the end of the debate.
When I saw Michelle coming on stage, forgive me for being so crass, but I thought - aww, she's so proud of him and relieved that he did well in this test. And that tonight they'll bang like bunnies. Sorry again, but that made me all gooey and sympathetic to them. That's a warm, appealing dynamic.

While Cindy frankly freaks me out. She doesn't look human - with her face lifts and out-of-this world 300000$ outfits and strung-up expressions.
Even Nancy Reagan wasn't that bad - she came across as more honest somehow, as she was an actress, am I right? And we do expect face jobs for actresses.
I look at her and McCain and see two weirdos who creep me out, because I don't get any human feeling out of them, in regard to each other. I think Cindy should try and really stay behind the scenes, as every close-up of her causes some fractions of points of drop for McCain. She just highlights the worst in McCain.

Actually, I thought McCain was pretty good at the debates, he exceeded my expectations while Obama frustrated me a bit, but then, I was rooting for Obama. I thought Obama let McCain get away with too much, missed a few strong comebacks.
The best parts for me were his reiteration of tax cut for middle classes, driving in that Ahmi-what's his name is not really the one in charge in Iran, insistance on negotiations, mentioning Spain gaffe (yess!), and the most important point - that McCain is stuck on Iraq war and misses the bigger picture of the whole world and lots of problems which have to be addressed but which were obscured by Iraq war for so long.
That I thought was the strongest point he made in the debates, I wished he made it stronger by exposing McCain as an old man stuck on anecdotes from his past, stuck on his Iraq war obsession, and ignoring that everything moved on since then and needs addressing much more urgently than Iraq.

But during the debates McCain reassured me a bit that he's not a borderline senile psycho who wants to wage a war with the whole world and who would be pressing the Red Button out of spite or onset of dementia. He sounded more reasonable and rational on foreign policy than I expected. He rebuke to Obama about dangers of attacking Pakistan was for me his strongest statement in the debate.

But when Cindy got on stage and McCain and her were looking plain antisocial and freaky it all came back, my worries that he is not sane enough to be trusted with the Red Button came back. So that blog entry resonated with me a lot.

Also - Obama called McCain both Tom and Jim, which I though was hilarious. But my impression was that he was schooled in some kind of Dale Carnegie techniques and was so focused on calling the opponent by name, that he tried too hard and misspoke twice just because of that, because of being too strung-up about it.
Saying that McCain is right seemed to me also coming from Carnegie, were you have to make your opponet see that you are sympathetic to him, to get what you wanted. If you agree with someone you can get the result you want much easier then you shout and demand angrily.
So it seemed to me that was just Obama style, which probably wasn't suited that well to this debate, as here you didn't have to make you opponent agree with you, but prove that you are better than your opponent.

Nevertheless, the debate clearly didn't hurt Obama and also legitimized him in the eyes of undecided and uninformed. My husband who was leaning to McCain turned to Obama yesterday just because it was the first time he listened to them together, and saw Obama as a guy worthy of presidency, which he thought of McCain by default. And when you get through all that "muslim weirdo" propaganda and judge them equally, Obama has the edge just by not being Republican and/or old.

[yovargas]

I'd be curious to hear what our more centrist types thought of that. Not just Anthy, but yov, Maria, Faramond, Griffy (I know you can't vote, but I always find your views interesting), Holby, etc.

I caught it in the piece I watched and noted it as pleasingly refreshing. If McCain said "I think the Holocaust was bad", any person should say "He's right". The point isn't to prove that your "opponent" is wrong about everything. Two reasonable people will agree on loads of things and as a party-hating independent, it's nice to see someone who doesn't treat "opposing party" as "the enemy". I despise that attitude and I think it's causing a lot of problems in our country. I'm not entirely convinced that it's not all calculated and contrived at this point but whether or not it is, it reads favorably with me.

[Holbytla]

Well barring a trip to Never Never Land, courtesy hasn't won any elections. Not ever. Which is the only point of any of this.

No you don't want to appear as attacking all the time or harping on the other guy, but it isn't wise to swing even one vote because of a gaff.

I guarantee Obama's campaign has spoken to him about these things and you won't see them again.

[yovargas]

It's quite, quite possible that enough people are actually sick enough of the bitter, divisive political crap that someone who can at least put on a cordial face may win significant people over. I know it's a plus in my book and I'm damn sure I'm not the only one.

[anthriel]

But you know, for all the complaints that some democrats have made about Obama being too polite, and saying he agreed with McCain too often, I thought that was among his best qualities. I WANT to have a president who can both stand up for himself and be gracious and courteous as well. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

Again, I agree with you. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we are in a minority.

Oh, I agree as well. We'll be in a minority together.

I've heard that she's incurious and not a fast learner, so she's probably starting from a position of knowing less than another person with her experience might know.

Prim, I've seen you write this a couple of times, now. Do you remember where it was that you heard this?

Obama has the better stage presence and the camera likes him better than McCain. Consider McCain is early 70's and Obama is 47.
I am guessing tha Obama would have suffered some loss of appeal if he had spent 5 years in a POW camp.

VERY well put, Holby. I always thought it was mean spirited when Bob Dole was teased for dropping a pencil out of his mangled hand. His hand was mangled in the course of his service to his country.

McCain does not move like a ballet dancer, it is true. But I have some suspicion that the five years of torture he endured may have caused some lasting damage. His lack of grace may be part of the price he paid in serving his country.