The 2008 Presidential Campaign: Part Three

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was just about to comment about that post. Please avoid lowering to the level of name-calling or gratuitous insults, including those directed at public figures like the candidates. Referring to Sarah Palin as "a poodle in a dress who barks at everything" does nothing to advance the discussion or promote measured discourse.

[Erunáme]

Gotta love The Daily Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQK1al91drs

[sauronsfinger]

Eruname. That was fantastic!!!! Thank you greatly for that. I try to catch the show when they rerun it in the morning and had not yet seen that segment. Each part of it just gets better and better and better. And Palin herself talking about women candidates who "whine" when criticized was priceless.

Stewart should get another Emmy.

[Padme]

Ok I will edit it.


And thank you Eru. I was looking for that clip.

[vison]

Well, aside from the "poodle" part, Padme is exactly right.

[sauronsfinger]

Just saw part one of the Gibson- Palin interview on ABC News and it was frightening.

Palin was asked a question about Israel attacking Iran in three different ways and she gave the same preprogramed answer each time like a robot trying to avoid a straight answer.

Gibson asked her what the Bush Doctrine was and it was obvious from her initial answer that she did not know what the Bush Doctrine was.

When he asked her about her alleged foreign policy experience of commanding the Alaskan National Guard and living next to Russia, she went into a recital of energy policy completly ignoring the question or its context.

Two weeks ago I said Sarah Palin might be the most dangerous woman in America. Now I am more convinced that ever. She could very well be a heartbeat away from the Presidency and she does not even have a grasp of basic foreign policy other than to recite preprogramed answers she was coached to deliver.

God help us. We are going to need it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

sf, thanks for the review of the interview. But if you could leave out the over-the-top "most dangerous woman in the world" rhetoric in the future, I would greatly appreciate it. You don't need to say that type of thing to make your point, and all it does is ensure that the discussion will become confrontational (or, conversely, simply convince people with a different opinion that it isn't even worth engaging in discussion).

[halplm]

(or, conversely, simply convince people with a different opinion that it isn't even worth engaging in discussion).

bingo

[yovargas]

Gotta love The Daily Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQK1al91drs

for The Daily Show.

[Primula Baggins]

That clip was the Daily Show at its most brilliant.

And yes, I fully expect that if Obama is president, he'll come in for some of the same treatment.

[sauronsfinger]

Voronwë .... I have laid off the "most dangerous woman" line out of respect for you for the last two weeks. I broke my silence because I was so disgusted with Palin on Gibson tonight. I hope you see it and I would be interested in your reaction. Tell me if you thought that she did not know what the Bush Doctrine was when Gibson asked her. To me it was painfully obvious --- but I have been known to look at things rther cynically.

She was like a programmed beautiful Stepford Wife repeating the line about Israel three times "we should not second guess Israel"..... it was like you could see the strings above her head.

Please try to watch it on Youtube or ABC's site and tell me what you thought because I respect your calm and measured opinion.

[narya]

SF, I agree with you. To put it differently, Palin could soon be the most powerful person in the world (if elected, and if McCain dies) and she isn't ready for that job. That is a very dangerous and scary scenario to me.

[Cenedril_Gildinaur]

Palin has greatly disappointed me by being so pro-war. That makes 3 out of the 4 on the tickets are awful on that subject.

Obama's the exception since while he also wants to invade a lot of countries, he is willing to pull out of Iraq. Maybe. Possibly. If it's not too much trouble. If it can be done without inconveniencing anyone. And only 18 months after he gives the word, if he gives it.

The sad thing is that that is sufficient to make him the anti-war candidate. I guess it's all a matter of who he's compared against.

[Frelga]

[halplm]

First of all, it was clear that Charlie Gibson was a rather hostile interviewer, who was trying to corner Palin into making a statement that would be the "soundbite" trying to make her look foolish.

The question about Isreal was absurd. Governor Palin can't possibly make a statement about what the US would do given hypothetical actions of Isreal.

Here's the real kicker... has any journalist ever asked Obama a similar question? Are we expecting the VP on one ticket to know more than teh President on the other about hypothetical international crisis?

As for the "Bush Doctrine" nonsense... could someone point out to me where this term has some official meaning? I hadn't heard it until today, and my first thought wouldn't have been anything to do with foreign policy. Upon looking it up on wikipedia, it is clear the term has had a variety of meanings, and thus Palin's question about "in what respect" makes perfect sense, and her response was certainly one interpretation of the term.

The meaning Charlie Gibson gave it is clearly from some unofficial source somewhere, probably a left-wing book of some variety. Are we now expecting the republican VP candidate to not only have a plan for all hypothetical war scenarios (and talk about them on national television of course), but to also be an expert on all liberal characterizations of the Bush presidency and agree with them?

I did not like Palin dodging the National Guard question, but then I don't think it was a fair question either.

I did like her answer on Georgia.

SF "programmed beautiful Stepford Wife " is a phrase you should know would be offensive.

Several have said the thought of Sarah Palin scares them because of her lack of foreign policy experience... Now you know how I've fealt about Obama from day 1, and continue to feel!!!

Anyone who thinks Obama isn't scary as commander in chief, should obviously recognize that Palin can learn just as much as he has before it would be an issue, in just the ways he has... i.e. book learning and advisors.

At least Palin's won't be the same as Jimmy Carter's.

[sauronsfinger]

Hal - your feigned outrage and taking offense at my statements is getting really tiring and rather silly. Here is your latest outburst

SF "programmed beautiful Stepford Wife " is a phrase you should know would be offensive.

When Sarah Palin repeats the same answer three different times - the Israel question - "we cannot second guess..... we cannot second guess.... we cannot second guess ...." yes, Hal she looks like a computer programmed Stepford wife.

Here it is for you

GIBSON: What if Israel decided it felt threatened and needed to take out the Iranian nuclear facilities?

PALIN: Well, first, we are friends with Israel and I don't think that we should second guess the measures that Israel has to take to defend themselves and for their security.

GIBSON: So if we wouldn't second guess it and they decided they needed to do it because Iran was an existential threat, we would cooperative or agree with that.

PALIN: I don't think we can second guess what Israel has to do to secure its nation.

GIBSON: So if it felt necessary, if it felt the need to defend itself by taking out Iranian nuclear facilities, that would be all right.

PALIN: We cannot second guess the steps that Israel has to take to defend itself.

That was just plain weird. It was like the tape kept playing the same loop over and over and over again.

Sarah Palin is beautiful. Does that offend you?

It is evident that her responses were carefully prepared and programmed? Does that offend you?

For me, or anyone else to connect it with a cultural touchstone like the film The Stepford Wives is perfectly acceptable. Do a google search using those words and you get over 4,500 results. And that was before todays columns and posts on her interview last night.

Hal, have you ever seen the film THE STEPFORD WIVES so that you can understand the context of my connection?

All I can say Hal is based on all the expression of outrage in so many different posts over the past, you are easilly offended. Either that or you feign umbrage hoping to somehow silence folks like me who have a irritating way of putting things before you that just disturb you.

You keep devaluing that particular coin of the realm and eventually it will have no worth at all.

[yovargas]

So, had anybody here heard the term "Bush Doctrine" before last night? I sure hadn't. I don't know if it was intended to make her look ignorant but that's kinda what it sounded like to me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I have heard the term used, but not in any formalized sense (such as the Monroe Doctrine).

I also tend to agree with Hal that the characterization of her as a "programmed beautiful Stepford Wife" is unnecessary insulting. Politicians repeat the same answer all the time; there is nothing particularly surprising or strange about that. I wasn't especially impressed with her answers, but that is because I don't agree with her, and don't particularly think she is very knowledgable about the subject. I don't need to insult her in order to express that opinion. That characterization comes across as both overly partisan and (more worrying) with a tinge of sexism thrown in. Had a male candidate made the same responses, you certainly wouldly have used that characterization, or anything similar to it.

[sauronsfinger]

Lots of folks have not heard of the Bush Doctrine. Thankfully, they are not running for Vice President of the USA. Sarah Palin is. I expect more from a candidate in that position that I would one of us here.

And I hope everyone else would expect more also.

Brett Blackledge, writing about the inteviews for the AP, says this in his lead paragraph today:

Sarah Palin sought to defend her qualifications as John McCains running mate but struggled with foreign policy, unable to describe President George W. Bush's doctrine on threatening nations and acknowledging that she has never met a foreign head of state.

That is the first sentence of the AP national wire story that papers all over America are picking up. So the perception I had of her being ignorant of the Bush Doctrine is not limited to just me. And this is not some editorial page columnist pontificating or giving their opinion. It is a fact based story.

Voronwë - you read my intial review of the Gibson/ Palin questions last night and did not indicate anything was wrong with it outside of your renewed objection to the dangerous line. Just like Hal does on a weekly basis, I can get easilly offended too. But I would not want to make that the standard and apply it to Hals posts or anyone else.

4,500 google references to Palin and Stepford in just two weeks time. Its a longtime cultural touchstone and is a perfect reference given the situation.

Please note that Narya - a female member ofthis board - read my post with the Stepford reference in it. She posted after me saying

SF, I agree with you

So please, lets not try to turn this into something that it clearly is not and never was.

It may be worth noting that the book and film THE STEPFORD WIVES was written as a satire against narrow minded men who merely wanted woman to be attractive and programmed to mouth their own words and beliefs back to them. It could be seen as a feminist story and I certainly consider that a good thing.


Are we all to play ostrich and deny reality? Are all cultural touchstones now out of bounds?

And if a male had done the same thing in the same situation I would have gladly compared him to a programmed robot droning the same line over and over in a deep male voice.

Sarah Palin was largely picked because she is a woman. She was picked to target the large number of woman that had not reacted positively to John McCain. To have to ignore that fact of her own being is to rush down the rabbit hole of the worst type of imposed political correctness.

Unless that of course is one of the tactics being used by the Republicans. Pick her because she is a woman then attack anyone who mentions the fact of reality.

Is that the standard we want to impose here also?

I seriously think we need a frank and open discussion around the idea of how to handle the Palin discussions here without stifling them just because someone wants to charge sexism when they do not like something. Or worse, to try to gain some partisan points. This needs to be discussed openly and some type of understanding reached or this is going to happen again and again without any rational resolution.

[Padme]

Well I watched both the Obama/McCain community services spill on MSNBC last night, and the Palin spill on Nightline.

First off,

Oh how I wish we could just play the MSNBC stuff. No mention of any animals, be it pit bulls or pigs, with lipstick. No derating each other's service or sideshow stabs. Real meat and potatoes there in that show. They talked policies and issues. Of course it was probably not watched by most.

That said Palin looked like a high school debater in her interview. She dodged questions or refused to answer questions by dancing around them. I still don't understand how seeing Russia can possibly be qualifications in foreign policy. I guess if all else fails McCain can say he has seen Mexico from Arizona so that qaulifies him for the job. I would rather he stand on his actual forgeing policy experience, but hey. And as for seeing a different country and having oil as the economic support and it all being 'foreign policy' experience, well every Governor of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California and quite a few others can claim it. My feeling after seeing Palin was she is totally unprepared, and as I said it was like watching a high school debate member trying to debate in a trial. I also agree as the GOP VP pick for the next election, Palin should know what the Bush Doctrine says. I bet Biden knows it well.