Discussion of Racism

Discussions of and about the historic 2008 U.S. Presidential Election
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Holbytla
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Post by Holbytla »

See if I had that ability I would have written what Griff wrote, but I don't.

Well I'm far more ornery too so... :)
But I agree with what she said.

I get the awful feeling at times that some people on this planet aren't really interested in equality. They really want reparation and to exact punishment. They want their turn to be the oppressors. That is the kind of thing that perpetuates this crap.

I've done what I could in my life to learn and be aware of racism. I've taught my kids what I could. What else am I supposed to do? Allow a preacher to continue the destructive path without being angry about it?
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Post by vison »

So, it's okay for you to be angry at the preacher for doing what you think is wrong, but it's not okay for him to be angry about something much worse?

I don't see his anger as "destructive" but as honesty.

No problem can be solved until it is identified and brought out into the open.

Griff's post was a good post, but there's a lot more that she could have said.
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Post by yovargas »

I've been wanting this shirt for a while.

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Post by Griffon64 »

Even in that hot pink, Yov? :D ;)

Yes, there's a lot more I could have said. I originally had more in the post, too, but I cut it, because I have RL time constraints and I didn't think it would do much good to post stuff I haven't had time to reread enough to be reasonably sure, within my own capabilities, that I was being as clear and concise about my thoughts as I could be.

As far as honesty goes: honesty is something that I personally feel have been somewhat amiss in society for a while now. No problem can be tackled, in my opinion, unless it is out in the open, clear and defined for all to see and hopefully better understood for the honesty that went into stating it. It does no good when people hem and ha about and profess to think differently than they really do ( whether out of fear, or shame, or political correctness, or maybe even decorum, or whatever ), because then you end up encountering resistance in unexpected spots and generally a lot of energy is wasted in all the wrong places. Without honesty, people tend to dance around issues as they attempt to manoeuvre things the way they need them to be without coming out and saying so. If an opinion is worth having and a standpoint is worth supporting, then it should probably also be worth being honest about.
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Post by Holbytla »

vison wrote:So, it's okay for you to be angry at the preacher for doing what you think is wrong, but it's not okay for him to be angry about something much worse?

I don't see his anger as "destructive" but as honesty.

No problem can be solved until it is identified and brought out into the open.

Griff's post was a good post, but there's a lot more that she could have said.
You know I didn't say it wasn't ok for him to be angry.
And I don't believe it is something much worse. I believe it is the exact same thing. It is a form of bigotry.

Reverend Dr Martin Luthor King was fighting the same fight, but I never heard anything like that from him. And it seems to me Dr King was fairly successful at what he did.

yov you may have the same shirt, but I don't believe you fill it out quite the same way. :P
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Post by yovargas »

Their lack of a male version is one reason I don't already own it. :P
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Post by WampusCat »

Holby, if I understand your comments right, you think Obama should have challenged Wright sooner. But how do you know he didn't?

When I have serious problems with a sermon, I talk privately with the minister, asking for clarification and sometimes pointing out what I think was off-base (What can I say? I'm opinionated. And usually they appreciate having someone take them seriously enough to challenge their words, as long as the challenge has some theological depth).

That's how I've seen most other church members handle that sort of situation, too. Not all. There was the one guy who sent daily angry e-mails with copies to everyone in the congregation. But most people don't want to take their disagreements public.

Now, I don't know if Obama challenged Wright privately or not. But I don't think we have to assume that unless he stood up in church, argued loudly and stormed out, that he never objected directly to him.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

That's a great point, Wampus.

Some of the media coverage in particular seems to be from people who don't know how churches work. Some of them seem to assume that the senior pastor is some kind of spiritual guru, and all his parishioners accept his every word as divine truth and only attend because they are his followers. Because, you know, we're all Moonies for our own Rev. Moons.
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Post by vison »

Primula Baggins wrote:That's a great point, Wampus.

Some of the media coverage in particular seems to be from people who don't know how churches work. Some of them seem to assume that the senior pastor is some kind of spiritual guru, and all his parishioners accept his every word as divine truth and only attend because they are his followers. Because, you know, we're all Moonies for our own Rev. Moons.
This is a really good point. Since an awful lot of people are not regular church goers, they have no real clue how the place works.

I sat down and watched a few minutes of some show on PBS this afternoon, I don't know who the host was, it wasn't Charlie Rose (I recognize him when I see him) and the two guests were yakking away about Mr. Wright and then about Mr. Obama saying his grandma was a "typical white person" and they seemed to think that was it, game over for Obama.

Bollocks. People are just NOT that stupid. I think that those who would NEVER vote for Obama still won't, those who have liked him from the start still do, and those in the middle are smart enough to figure it all out.

I think I'm going to have to start paying more attention. I might have to start - - - watching TV.

I don't know if I can expect that much from me, though. I'm pretty stubborn.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Holbytla wrote:And I don't believe it is something much worse. I believe it is the exact same thing.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this. How anyone could say that a few angry sermons are the same thing as centuries of slavery, lynching, discrimination and other forms of oppression just blows my mind. And makes me oh so sad.

Yes, it is wrong. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, it is wrong. But it is not the same thing. It isn't. And the fact that people think that it is feeds the very angry that you are decrying.
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Post by yovargas »

(I think Holby misspoke or misunderstood the question.)

I'm not interested in talking about Wright specifically anymore - the issue is settled for me - but the attitude of some still bugs me. ( :rage: :P) For me, the key thing was how common and central the kind of mentality Obama has already condemned was. I just don't buy that if that kind of racially divisive attitude was a front-n-center thing at Wright's church, that most weeks the sermons are peppered with talk of the evils of the white race, that someone who opposes that mentality - not merely disagrees with but actively opposes, as Obama said he does - would frequent that church. And that if they do frequent that church, of course I'm going to question how genuinely opposed they are to those views. That's a very different issue than merely having an occasional theological disagreement with your pastor or finding out you disagree on some politics with your pastor.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I just don't buy that if that kind of racially divisive attitude was a front-n-center thing at Wright's church, that most weeks the sermons are peppered with talk of the evils of the white race
But I thought one of Obama's points was that this was not the case.

For those who have not made up their minds on the issue, here is a link to a CNN blog entry whose writer has listened to several of Wright's controversial sermons in full. Here he discusses the entire 2003 sermon that included the "God damn America" sound bite.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by vison »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Holbytla wrote:And I don't believe it is something much worse. I believe it is the exact same thing.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this.
Me too.
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Post by yovargas »

Primula Baggins wrote:
I just don't buy that if that kind of racially divisive attitude was a front-n-center thing at Wright's church, that most weeks the sermons are peppered with talk of the evils of the white race
But I thought one of Obama's points was that this was not the case.

People seem fond of ignoring my ifs. :P
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Well, as you phrased that, it sounded as if your supposition was that this was true; the "if" was just stating the basis for your conclusion. "If the sun is rising on your right, you're looking north."
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Inanna »

Actually, if you read the entire sentence - then it makes sense, Prim. Yov is saying, that if this was the way Rev. Wright always preached, then he cannot see someone like Obama (from all that he has told us about himself) hanging around there.

Although, I had to read it twice to get it. ;)
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I went back and reread, and I still think it can be read as I read it, as an explanation of why yov "question[s] how genuinely opposed [Obama is] to those views." But if that is not the case, of course I accept the correction.

Hypothetical phrasing can be slippery. :P
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Holbytla »

Holbytla wrote:
vison wrote:So, it's okay for you to be angry at the preacher for doing what you think is wrong, but it's not okay for him to be angry about something much worse?

I don't see his anger as "destructive" but as honesty.

No problem can be solved until it is identified and brought out into the open.

Griff's post was a good post, but there's a lot more that she could have said.
You know I didn't say it wasn't ok for him to be angry.
And I don't believe it is something much worse. I believe it is the exact same thing. It is a form of bigotry.

Reverend Dr Martin Luthor King was fighting the same fight, but I never heard anything like that from him. And it seems to me Dr King was fairly successful at what he did.

yov you may have the same shirt, but I don't believe you fill it out quite the same way. :P
I'm gobsmacked too. We can all be gobsmacked together. :)

Now I bolded the whole relevant portion, where I said it was the exact same thing. Including the following sentence where I said it was a form of bigotry. I never said it was the same as slavery and wasn't trying to infer that.


Did anyone honestly think that I was equating slavery with a sermon? :scratch:
Am I usually that irrational?
I probably should have worded it as "I believe it is the exact same thing, a form of bigotry", but I didn't. I wasn't comparing the two.

Wampus I have no idea what Obama has said to Wright ever. He very well may have spoken to him. But that isn't the point. The Wright thing has been out for quite a while and Obama didn't address it until it was clear the uproar over it wasn't dying down.
I don't think he wanted to distance himself from Wright because he obviously admires what he has done, but I think he realized he was a political nightmare for him.

I understand that the senior pastor is only one person and doesn't echo the entire parish. But we aren't just talking about a parishioner here. We are also talking about a close personal friend of Obama. Someone that performed his marriage ceremony and various other religious things. We are talking about someone that was on Obama's staff.
He was more than just the senior pastor.

No I don't think Wright was all about dissing the whitey and no I don't believe Obama shares those divisive views with Wright. According to Obama's expressed views, I do think he was too tolerant by not addressing it sooner and I do think he ultimately acted with politics in mind. And I am still not buying the statement that he didn't know of this side of Wright.
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Post by WampusCat »

Thank you for the clarification, Holby.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Voronwë wrote:I am absolutely gobsmacked by this. How anyone could say that a few angry sermons are the same thing as centuries of slavery, lynching, discrimination and other forms of oppression just blows my mind.
Yeah, me too. And I don't really accept backpedalling on this issue. I am of that rare school which says we are accountable for the sins of our fathers. We have, at the very least, to acknowledge that they happened, publicly disavow them, and make whatever reparations that we can. It is astounding to me that people believe we are born into this world free of obligation. We are not, imo. We are, rather, part of a long furrowing toward perfection and we have to take our place in the yoke, so to speak.

Allow me to relate a conversation I had with my half-sister about eighteen months ago. She complained that she was experiencing some pretty extreme reverse-discrimination at work because of her being White. (She works for the military.)

Sis: We have training weekends that the base pays for and the only person who is ever allowed to go on them is the Black girl in the office. She's gone to the last three down in Knoxville, and then she got a promotion for her extra training.

Me: You mean, you've asked to have your turn and they won't let you go?

Sis: Well no, not exactly. They would let me go, but I can't go.

Me: Why not?

Sis: You know what my life is like. I have to go with [husband] when it's his vacation time, and I have the dogs to take care of, and now all this [trouble with kids]. I can't leave for a weekend.

Me: So, she's actually the only one who wants to go on the training weekends.

Sis: Yes, but she's Black.

Me: Therefore ...?

Sis: They shouldn't let it be a Black person who goes all the time. That's not fair. It's discrimination.

Me: So, you're saying that no Black person should be allowed to get extra training that a White person doesn't want ... just because they're Black?

Sis: When you put it that way it sounds racist.

Me: Yes, it does.

Sis: Well, I don't care how it sounds, it doesn't feel fair to me.

You see, my Sis is not racist by her own definition of racist. She thinks that Black people should be allowed to get ahead. She just doesn't think they should be allowed to get ahead of White people. If all the White people are lazy and shiftless, then by golly the Black people should have to be lazy and shiftless too. Otherwise they might get ahead of the White people and that would be unfair. That is not the correct order of the universe ... in her universe.

I am thinking that as this election proceeds, we will find out just how racist America really is, and how much of a 'pass' on prior atrocities is really being demanded by White people who may have been born too late to own slaves themselves but received plenty of benefit from the erstwhile existence of slavery in this country, along with all its later manifestations in the Jim Crow laws, the differential wages, the differential enforcement of the criminal code, the differential access to housing and to schools, and on and on down the list of 'polite' oppressions. I hear a lot of passes being handed around, and not to Black people.

The Great Society of Lyndon Johnson ... my first job out of college ... no, actually it was my second ... was stripping Welfare recipients of their life insurance policies. How many people realize, I wonder, that to receive the so-called social safety net, one must first surrender all of one's assets to the State? Wages and salaries are current income; assets are future income. If you think there's a Senator or Congressperson on the hill who doesn't know this, you were born yesterday. In exchange for a welfare payment equal to poverty level income, we strip these people of all their assets, all their 'future income' - their ability to leverage debt, their ability to earn interest on savings, equity in a home, and the right to be buried in a coffin and not a wooden box - and then we decry the fact that Welfare has become multi-generational. What else could it possibly be?

I understand the argument for doing it this way - you don't want to give people money until they have exhausted their own means of self-support, but even in bankruptcy you can't take a person's house away from them. If they apply for Welfare, we can.

Do I think that it is accidental that the net effect of Johnson's Great Society was to strip Black people of their assets and put them intergenerationally at the mercy of the State? No, I do not think that was an accident. But at my age I'm pretty cynical.

Black crime rates? The prison is the new plantation. I could write ten pages about the racial profiling I've seen with my own eyes in my own neighborhood, and about my experience visiting our max security prison in the Country of Philadelphia ... but this is why I don't get any work done when I visit HoF every day, lol.

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