Why Peter Jackson is a purist compared to the BBC!

Post by **axordil** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:23 pm

he considered LotR important, worthy of tremendous effort

This is certainly necessary, if not sufficient, for any treatment. I think in a lot of ways he or the rest of his writers "got" much of LOTR too, which is the second leg of the tripod. Notions of B-52s aside, one can point at specific scenes that stand out because they don't fit in, and that's possible only because there is something that DOES work they don't fit in with.

The third is of course the resources to make it happen.

Is it possible that they're doing the Merlin series as camp, a la the 60s Batman?

Post by **Alatar** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:54 pm

I don't think the Beeb have a problem with Fantasy. Their adaptation of Gormenghast was very good I thought, as are nearly all of the Radio Plays, including their LotR and their Gormenghast (which had a young Sting as Steerpike). I don't think thats the problem.

I think the real problem is when there's a feeling that they need to do something different. The Arthurian thing was pretty much nailed in Excalibur. Robin Hood was nailed by the ITV/Ch4 series. Whats more can you do except modernise it, look for a fresh take. After all it has worked brilliantly for Doctor Who, their flagship series.

I haven't seen Merlin yet, but I probably will watch it with the kids. They're not really ready for Excalibur yet...

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:41 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:It just leads to, as you rightly point out, a half-heartedness that makes it really hard to do it right. PJ's respect for Tolkien was real, and it showed. He didn't always express it right by my lights, and sometimes I think he misunderstood what he was trying to portray; but he considered LotR important, worthy of tremendous effort, and I'll always be grateful for that.

Word.

axordil wrote:Is it possible that they're doing the Merlin series as camp, a la the 60s Batman?

I wouldn't say it was camp, exactly ... it's just not really what Merlin ought to be. Or could be.

Mind you, that 1999 outing with Sam Neill and Isabella Rossellini was weird too.

Alatar wrote:I think the real problem is when there's a feeling that they need to do something different. The Arthurian thing was pretty much nailed in Excalibur. Robin Hood was nailed by the ITV/Ch4 series. Whats more can you do except modernise it, look for a fresh take. After all it has worked brilliantly for Doctor Who, their flagship series.

It would be hard to improve on the ITV Robin Hood of the 1980s. The BBC Robin Hood makes Kevin Costner's film look like a masterpiece.

And I agree about Doctor Who.

But that's an evolving legend, really ...

Post by **WampusCat** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:19 pm

Doctor Who.

What were we talking about again?

Post by **Impenitent** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:28 am

Pearly Di wrote: The Beeb pretty much have it sussed when it comes to adapting 19th century novels. And earlier stuff: I adore their fantastic Clarissa, with Sean Bean, from 1991. It's very dark. And sexeh.

OMG!!!

They did Clarissa!?

I looooove that book! I'm going to have to find the DVD!!!

And Sean Bean is in it?!! Is he Lovelace?!

Squeee!

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:38 pm

WampusCat wrote:Doctor Who.

David Tennant's Doctor is the

and the

What were we talking about again?

Frodo.

and

Impenitent wrote:OMG!!! [/b][/size]

They did Clarissa!?

I looooove that book! I'm going to have to find the DVD!!!

And Sean Bean is in it?!! Is he Lovelace?!

Squeee!

Yessssss!!!!! He was Lovelace!!!!!!!

Apparently this long, sprawling novel (I've not read it, I'm allergic to 18th century lit

) was the inspiration for Les Liaisons Dangereuse. Whatever ... the BBC did a brilliant job with it, in just three episodes. It was really powerful and creepy: a bodice-ripper with a real edge. Great costumes too! Poor Clarissa -- she goes through the ringer, that girl!

Biggest regret of my life, by the way: not going to see Alan Rickman as Valmont in the acclaimed 1989 theatre production of Les Liaisons.

Why, Pearl, why???? WHY DIDN'T YOU GO?????????????? Curse us and crush us, my precious!

I have two friends who saw that famous production on stage and they said that Rickman was the single most hottest thing in the universe ever. They said forget about John Malkovich. Rickman was SMOKIN'. I can well believe it.

Post by **WampusCat** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:37 pm

Tennant, Frodo, Bean, Rickman ...

time for a cold shower.

(Somehow I doubt that Tolkien ever intended for Frodo to be included in a list like that. Tough! I've always had a thing for Frodo.)

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:11 pm

Me, too. Book Frodo, of course, though I never had the problems with Movie Frodo other people did.

To quote Lois McMaster Bujold, "You should have fallen in love with a happy man, if you wanted happiness. But no, you had to fall for the breathtaking beauty of pain." (Barrayar)

Post by **Impenitent** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:52 pm

I recognise that film-Frodo did an excellent and convincing job, but I can't say I ever felt for him the way I do about the Frodo I've loved since my teens, the one Tolkien wrote.

Rickman as Valmont would have been devastating! I mean, the man is the bomb, right? He is the bomb. Blows them all out of the water.

Clarissa I read at the age of 17 - perfect age to become completely immersed in that story of innocence tempted and the subsquent betrayal suffered and fall from grace. Long and sprawling is right, but I loved it.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:27 am

WampusCat wrote:Tennant, Frodo, Bean, Rickman ...

time for a cold shower.

Heh.

(Somehow I doubt that Tolkien ever intended for Frodo to be included in a list like that. Tough! I've always had a thing for Frodo.)

Or, as one friend of mine put it, "do you suppose that Tolkien ever imagined that people would one day think Frodo Baggins = sex god"? Or, as I used to call Movie Frodo, the Renaissance Angel Hobbit.

I don't think he (Tolkien) could ever have imagined such a thing.

Impenitent wrote:I recognise that film-Frodo did an excellent and convincing job, but I can't say I ever felt for him the way I do about the Frodo I've loved since my teens, the one Tolkien wrote.

I never had any complaint about Movie Frodo's looks.

Movie Frodo has the purity and spiritual nature of Frodo, but not quite the steel and certainly not the maturity of Book Frodo, whom I love.

Rickman as Valmont would have been devastating! I mean, the man is the bomb, right? He is the bomb. Blows them all out of the water.

Oh, he's the bomb. THE BOMB.

*wonders who Alan could have played in the LotR films*

Clarissa I read at the age of 17 - perfect age to become completely immersed in that story of innocence tempted and the subsquent betrayal suffered and fall from grace. Long and sprawling is right, but I loved it.

Yes, I read some great books at 17 ... all that rites of passage stuff ...

I have osgiliated my own thread with a vengeance, but well, it's MY thread.

Post by **Frelga** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:08 am

Pearly Di wrote:*wonders who Alan could have played in the LotR films*

Anyone?

OK, maybe not. But Denethor, definitely, especially the PJ edition. Saruman, quite possibly, although I think Lee was perfection. Wormtongue? But that would make no sense. Why wouldn't he get Éowyn?

But on reflection, I'd donate a pint of blood to see Rickman play Elrond.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:24 am

Oh, man. At Arwen's wedding. . . .

Post by **River** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:42 am

Rickman would have made an AWESOME Denethor.

Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:03 am

I've moved this thread to the forum addressing the movies. It should also be noted that we changed the name of that forum to better reflect the fact that the forum is meant to include threads about all the Tolkien movies, not just the upcoming Hobbit films. I've left a shadow in the Shibboleth forum so that people can easily find the thread.

Post by **Frelga** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:18 am

I think Rickman could even play Vornowë.

But someone else would have to do the drumming.

Post by **WampusCat** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:04 am

Celeborn.

Post by **Frelga** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:06 pm

Rickman would definitely improve on Celeborn. Although the extended edition was not so bad.

Pearly, I haven't seen the Merlin movie, but even I got a chuckle of this blog. Mild warning for language.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:03 pm

River wrote:Rickman would have made an AWESOME Denethor.

Oh, boy, yes.

Or Elrond. Or Celeborn. Or anyone.

Frelga wrote:Rickman would definitely improve on Celeborn. Although the extended edition was not so bad.

Oh, Celeborn is really cool in the EE.

He looks a bit like Lucius Malfoy too.

Pearly, I haven't seen the Merlin movie, but even I got a chuckle of this blog. Mild warning for language.

That's hilarious.

I love the Merlin Advent calendar, especially the snarky, slashy banter between Arthur and Merlin.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:06 pm

River wrote:Rickman would have made an AWESOME Denethor.

Oh, boy, yes.

Or Elrond. Or Celeborn. Or anyone.

That dark, velvety voice. Like dark chocolate with chilli and spices ...

Frelga wrote:Rickman would definitely improve on Celeborn. Although the extended edition was not so bad.

Oh, Celeborn is really cool in the EE.

He looks a bit like Lucius Malfoy too.

Pearly, I haven't seen the Merlin movie, but even I got a chuckle of this blog. Mild warning for language.

That's hilarious.

I love the Merlin Advent calendar, especially the snarky, slashy banter between Arthur and Merlin.

Post by **Alatar** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:38 am

I'm watching this with the kids right now. Its fun, but its not Arthur and Merlin. Its not even close. But, like I say, its fun and the kids are enjoying it.

Di, have you ever read "Mists of Avalon" by Marion Zimmer Bradley? Its a very interesting take on the Arthurian saga, pitched from the point of view of the Ladies of the Lake, who here are a pagan order. Its very much about the rise of Christ and the decline of the Druids. There's a lackluster tv version with Julianna Margulies and Angelica Huston also, but I'd recommend the book.

There are also other books written, expanding it into a series. When I read it there was only Mists of Avalon. When Mrs Alatar read it there were 3, and I think there's 6 now. I can't speak for their quality. It may be a Tolkien thing where she got caught up in telling the offshoots and backstory, or it may have been a cash in. Either way, the first book is worth a look.

ETA: Looks like the three Mrs Alatar read were the only ones written by MZB. The others were ghostwritten after her death based on plot ideas. I'd be inclined to stick with The Forest House and Lady of Avalon, which are both prequels to Mists of Avalon.