Musicals and Operas

[Alatar]

I've heard much worse in musical or jazz singing.

Thems fightin' words! Examples please?

Shirriff Note: the posts in this thread were split from another thread in Bag End, starting approximately here: http://www.thehalloffire.net/forum/view ... 0599#30599. Some limericks about singers in this thread were left behind in the other thread where the topic was limericks. Thanks to Alatar for hosting this note. Jn

[truehobbit]

Alatar, the thing is, I don't like rough or scratchy voices - so that covers a lot of jazz singing I've ever heard.
As to musicals, I can't speak of live musicals, I've only seen one once, so I only know movie musicals, and the singing there is often rather inexpert, or simply weak.

Can't think of examples right now, I just know that my most frequent reaction is mild eye-rolling.

But I've done some more listening - "There's no business like show business" is great, I thought - it needs to sound a bit coarse, IMO.
And, what's more, she's ancient in those recordings - so, my hat's off to her!

I thought I knew the name in context with the 50s, but now I see she's a lot older than that. Have you seen the 1932-clip? I loved that one!

I think Ethel Merman ROCKS!

[Alatar]

Really? I find that startling. If we're talking about the old school Hollywood musicals I could see that, because they were all expected to be "triple threats", singers, dancers and actors. As a result, you had Astaire crooning simple tunes because he was primarily a dancer. Likewise with others such as Ann Miller or even Doris Day (although in her case it was the voice that was stronger). In modern musicals however the voices are generally top notch. The only time they aren't is if they bring in a "name" for box office purposes. In a recent production of Annie on the West end, Miss Hannigan was played by Lily Savage, a cross-dressing comedian. Any person from the back row of the chorus could have out-performed him/her but it was the "name" that was bringing in a crowd. Likewise with the recent movie of Phantom of the Opera. Gerard Butler simply didn't have the voice for it.


Musicals shouldn't be judged on those exceptions though. Practically every "Cast Recording" has singers of the highest caliber, by any standards.

[Erunáme]

In modern musicals however the voices are generally top notch.

They are? Iavas's CD's make me cringe a fair bit.

[Alatar]

Again, some examples would be a help. Don't dismiss "belter" voices. Its a style of singing that requires as much training as operatic style and most of the practitioners can do both with ease.

[Estel]

A lot of people attempt that "belter" voice nowadays that really shouldn't, however. Course, they don't sing much in musicals Seriously though - I can't stand it when people who can belt it, think that they have to for the entire song. The music is what loses out in that case.



Music can be totally great
But to some belters I cannot relate

[Erunáme]

I don't think I'm talking about "belters".

Even Sara Brightman bothers me...she's not a "belter", right?

[Alys]

I absolutely adore Doris Day, if I could choose the voice of any singer's it would very likely be hers.

But then, what do I know about music?

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I can't stand it when people who can belt it, think that they have to for the entire song. The music is what loses out in that case.

That's a very astute observation, Estel.

Don't dismiss "belter" voices. Its a style of singing that requires as much training as operatic style and most of the practitioners can do both with ease.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Alatar. While I will admit that "belting" requires talent and skill, it doesn't require nearly as much training as opera. For starters, operatic music is far more demanding and difficult than what you would find in your typical Broadway musical. Just off the top of my head I can give you a couple more reasons:

(1) Opera singers, at least those performing lead roles, must have incredible endurance (and strong technique) to sing throughout a performance that may require hours of singing.

(2) Most opera singers have to be able to sing in Italian, French, and German. Other operatic languages they may have to learn include Russian, Czech, and English.

While viewing and listening to that Ethel Mermen video, I confess that it occurred to me that she might have made a fine opera singer. Of course she would have had to drop that schtick where she hits a note really hard then slides down to a lower note. While techniques like that can distinguish a popular singer's personal style, it gets to be a very bad habit. If overdone it can also get on one's nerves.

[yovargas]

Many people enjoy listening to Bob Dylan.

[Jnyusa]

I enjoy listening to his music, but not particularly when he is the one singing it.

Jn

[Holbytla]

Well you certainly cannot accuse him of belting out any lyrics.
He is more like a storyteller/singer. Almost more like he is talking rather than singing.

[Alatar]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Alatar. While I will admit that "belting" requires talent and skill, it doesn't require nearly as much training as opera.

My point was that most succesful Broadway/West End singers are trained and capable in both. Where they end up is normally a matter of finance rather than talent. Of course there are Broadway singers who can't sing Opera, and Opera Singers who couldn't "belt" to save their lives, but the top level can do either or both.

Sweeney Todd is as musically challenging as most Operas. Any musical singer worth their salt could perform Porgy and Bess. There is no intrinsic superiority, they are merely different art forms.

[narya]

SWWWooooooonnnn for Porgy and Bess!!111

Jim Croce was a bit of a crooner, not quite a belter, I'd say.

And Carley Simon could certainly belt.

When meeting the poster named "narya,"
the proper response is "who are ya?"

I'm Me, of course. No, wait, that was my alias on TOB.

[JewelSong]

Don't dismiss "belter" voices. Its a style of singing that requires as much training as operatic style and most of the practitioners can do both with ease.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Alatar. While I will admit that "belting" requires talent and skill, it doesn't require nearly as much training as opera. For starters, operatic music is far more demanding and difficult than what you would find in your typical Broadway musical. Just off the top of my head I can give you a couple more reasons:

(1) Opera singers, at least those performing lead roles, must have incredible endurance...

(2) Most opera singers have to be able to sing in Italian, French, and German...

Not to mention that opera is sung without benefit of microphones AND over a 100-piece orchestra. Opera singers have to learn to project their voices in a certain way. I once sat in the back row of the "Family Circle" at the Metropolitan and could hear every word. It's quite amazing, really.

Any musical singer worth their salt could perform Porgy and Bess.

Porgy and Bess IS an opera.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

My point was that most succesful Broadway/West End singers are trained and capable in both.

I know there are some crossover singers, tenor Jerry Hadley comes to mind, but my experience is that most people find opera singers who sing showtunes over-sing them, while Broadway performers who attempt to sing opera are found sorely lacking. Some of those may sound okay with amplification (and a lot of technilogical hocus pocus as one might find on a recording), but they wouldn't be able to cut it on the operatic stage.

Can you name a successful Broadway performer who can capably sing opera? I'd be interested in hearing them. (Please don't name Sarah Brightman. Eruname isn't the only one who doesn't care for her warbling. )


I respect your opinion, Alatar, but I believe you've oversimplified things a bit. I don't think opera and those who perform it can all be lumped together. There are numerous styles and vocal types in the field of opera alone, many of which don't include the ability to "belt". For example, one whose voice is best suited for singing works that require light, flexible singing would find most works by Richard Wagner completely unsuitable for their voice.

I believe there are many Broadway performers who are successful because of their acting and stage presence while their singing ability isn't very strong. I'd say the majority of those who perform in musicals fall into this category. Of course there are professional opera singers I've heard whose voices are so unpleasing that I scratch my head wondering how they ever land roles.

Sweeney Todd is as musically challenging as most Operas. Any musical singer worth their salt could perform Porgy and Bess. There is no intrinsic superiority, they are merely different art forms.

I totally agree that Sweeney Todd is extremely challenging musically, not necessarily vocally, but certainly musically. Porgy & Bess is sometimes referred to as a "folk opera". Some don't consider it opera at all. I'm not sure I agree with your comment about it, though, based on the quality (or lack thereof) of singing that I've heard in musicals. I also agree that opera isn't intrinsically superior. I'd generally say that musicals require better acting and movement, i.e., dancing, abilities from their stars while opera is more challenging vocally.

Oh, I'd be remiss if I did not add that I am certain that there are those who perform in musicals who are blessed with wonderful voices and, if given sufficient training, would be very capable of performing opera. From what I've heard, however, I believe they are in the minority.

(I apologize if I make my point a bit too vehemently. Singing is one of the few things I consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about. )

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Any musical singer worth their salt could perform Porgy and Bess.

Porgy and Bess IS an opera.

I think that was the point.

Can you name a successful Broadway performer who can capably sing opera?

Have you heard of Kristin Chenoweth? She's a Tony award winner and was the original Galinda in Wicked, but she's also had classical training in opera. There's currently an opera being written for her, I believe. Here is a video of her in Candide (although I'm not sure if that's an opera or not.)

I believe there are many Broadway performers who are successful because of their acting and stage presence while their singing ability isn't very strong.

I have to respectfully disagree. Opera may take a lot more, but there are a lot of Broadway performers with incredible voices. Of course, this is probably purely subjective, so perhaps we just have different tastes. (Plus, I know zip about singing.) It is true that not all Broadway performers have beautiful voices -- Daphne Rubin Vega, the original Mimi in Rent, for example, definitely has a rough voice. However, that's how Mimi is supposed to sound, I suppose that's an exception perhaps. (Although she is going to be in the NYC production of Les Mis this fall, which will be . . . interesting.) Broadway and opera are such different styles that I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare them. A singer could be brilliant on Broadway but be unable to pull off opera, and vice versa.

Again, just my completely uninformed and very biased opinion.

(Sorry to derail your thread, Anthy!)

[Estel]

As much as I love broadway, I have a special thing for opera.

Back when I was getting voice training, I desperately wanted to be an opera singer. I had the range, the tone and the skill, but one thing I did not have, that I would've desperately needed, was the power. My voice teacher at the time said it would be better if I went into broadway type music. Because they amplify the voices, it wouldn't matter as much that I didn't have the power.

Even a broadway singer who can belt it might have a difficult time projecting their voice the way an opera singer can.


Course, I remember watching a show about the golden age of broadway, and the older stars were quite.... well, honestly, they put down the recent shows, saying that in their day, they didn't use mics or any such thing.

So maybe the question isn't, what skill broadway vs opera singers have, but rather, how they are trained differently now then they were 40 years ago.




In opera they sing very high
In broadway you laugh and cry
Both have skill
and make you thrill
In either, your emotions fly

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Have you heard of Kristin Chenoweth? She's a Tony award winner and was the original Galinda in Wicked, but she's also had classical training in opera.

*cringe* Yes, I have.

I'd describe her voice as "pinched". She lacks the clear, open sound that is most suitable for opera. Many singers in musicals appear to rely on a different type of resonation than what is required of opera, and wind up with very nasal tones. I don't care for that type of singing at all.

No, Candide is not an opera. It's a musical by Leonard Bernstein. I have to eat my words a bit. She actually sounds pretty good in most of that clip. The singing she usually employs in musicals, and her speaking voice, is nasally. Blegh!

I believe there are many Broadway performers who are successful because of their acting and stage presence while their singing ability isn't very strong.

I have to respectfully disagree. Opera may take a lot more, but there are a lot of Broadway performers with incredible voices.

I thought I said something very close to that.

To whit:

Oh, I'd be remiss if I did not add that I am certain that there are those who perform in musicals who are blessed with wonderful voices and, if given sufficient training, would be very capable of performing opera. From what I've heard, however, I believe they are in the minority.

Yeah, I guess we did derail this thread a bit, didn't we?

Uh..and now back to...What is it we were talking about? Oh, yeah...LIMERICKS!

[Estel]

We could start a seperate thread about the skills of broadway vs opera singers