Winter is Coming: A Game of Thrones (SPOILERS)

[anthriel]

I have also read the GoT books, but I'm not sure I read all of them. I read them about 18 years ago, I think? I know one thing that should happen very soon, but I can't remember anything else that will happen in this next episode.

I think after the Red Wedding, though, I got a bit scarred. :| That was very difficult to read, and quite difficult to watch. Perhaps I'm just blocking everything which comes after that.

[narya]

P.S. SV: while the nihilism disturbs me as well, we cannot know the value of the story until it's over - in other words, if the nihilists lose to the honorable men and women in the end, the story could ultimately mirror LOTR - though from a different direction. Plus, Tolkien would likely agree that doing the right thing is important not because it keeps you alive (or gets you martyred) but because it's the right thing to do. The honorable men who are casualties of GoT ultimately prevail in the realm of the spiritual.

I'm afraid Eddard Stark is the only character with classic/romantic/chivalrous honor. It's so much easier in Tolkien's world to be honorable as you kill 100% evil subhuman armies, and sacrifice yourself for clearly noble causes, than it is to be in a civil war with other humans, both fighters and innocent bystanders, just because you think you or your leader would make a better king. So far, in the books, it looks like there won't be any honorable men and women left standing.

[Frelga]

Well, at the point when I bailed, Jon Snow still followed a pretty heroic pattern and Sam was played pretty straight as finding his courage, unlikely hero type. Stannis actually followed his notion of honor pretty closely, too. Also whassname, Brianne.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Agree with Frelga (though not about Stannis, as he seems to have compromised his honor for the promise of power - and is visibly uncomfortable with it).

I would add Bran and company, Rickon, Sansa (thus far), Samwell and Ser Barristan Selmy to that list of the honorable living. I also believe Danaerys comes very close to being an honorable hero, as she admirably takes a detour on her path to the Iron Throne in order to liberate slaver-held cities.

My theory is that ultimately, a generally honorable man and/or woman will come out on top in the end. Right now, I think that'll mean Jon Snow and Arya Stark on the throne. There has to be a reason for the focus on their friendship, and the prominence of "Needle" in the storyline. Right?

Plus, I believe the theory that Jon Snow is actually a Targaryen...

In any event, decent episode today. Though I'm getting tired of the overly nasty Ramsay Bolton stuff...

[narya]

Jon Snow may be a Targaryen, but he's not a true dragon, having burnt his hand on the lantern when he threw it at the blue-eyed guy.

One of the strong themes of the series is that everyone starts out on a seemingly good path, but then thru a series of unfortunate events or choices, heads down an unpleasant path that doesn't appear to have any fairytale-good endings. Sansa is a good example of a fairy tale gone bad. Jon Snow taking the Black certainly appears to limit his likely futures. And of course, there are all the characters that have died so far when we had such high, or low, hopes for them.

This theme parallels LOTR for Frodo and some of the other characters.

[Frelga]

Well, no one ever accused Martin of providing fairy-tale endings.

[Dave_LF]

Well, no one ever accused Martin of providing fairy-tale endings.

I don't know; book-Catelyn ended up in a bit of a Brothers-Grimm sort of neighborhood. (I've only seen season 1 of the HBO episodes, so I don't know if the same is true there).

[Passdagas the Brown]

Ding-dong.

[Alatar]

Gotta love it. 2nd ep of the series. Bam!

[Passdagas the Brown]

Amen. And Gleeson was his usual OTT but strangely (and uncomfortably) convincing self. I swear I knew legions of kids just like him in middle school. They'd all have likely ended up like that if someone put a crown on their heads.

According to promotional interviews (and what we know from the books) almost every episode this season is going to feature some very big moments.

Frankly, I can barely even think about TABA while this GoT season is still on.

[WampusCat]

While watching the episode I was thinking what a great job they did of including all the little hints (pointing in differing directions) about who did the deed. Then I found out that George R.R. Martin wrote this episode. That certainly explains it.

[Impenitent]

I've succumbed; resisted all this time, fearful of yet another addiction, but my daughter wheedled and coaxed, and she's watching it with me.

Only up to 6th episode, season 1, but I'm now in it for the long haul.

This means I must read the books, too.

[Impenitent]

I've just read a blog post about GoT and I'm curious about your opinion on it. It's spoilerish, and I don't know whether it's already been discussed here, so I'll do it in spoiler tags.

Hidden text.

The rape of Daenerys Targaryen by her brand new bridegroom, Khal Drogo is an invention for the screen, apparently. In the book, Drogo asks for her consent, and she gives it.
I haven't read the books yet (on the list as soon as I've finished my current read), but this is a huge, significant difference for both characters, and it completely changed my view of them! In the book, firstly, Drogo is not the brute I thought him, and secondly, the young woman doesn't fall in love with her rapist (a horrible, horrible trope!)
So, why insert an unnecessary rape scene in the tv series?

Is anyone in the mood to discuss the above?

[WampusCat]

That is actually a very timely question, since a similar scene happened in the most recent episode. Again, the encounter was made to be much more brutal than it was in the book by taking away the element of consent. (I'm trying to be vague enough that spoiler tags are not necessary.)

I find it troubling that the show writers feel the need to amplify the drama in this manner. There's plenty of both drama and brutality without forcing more of both into the story.

[Smaug's voice]

I find it troubling that the show writers feel the need to amplify the drama in this manner. There's plenty of both drama and brutality without forcing more of both into the story.

Shows the attitude of the makers to enforce violence on a series that is already abnormally high on that.
I read about the recent controversy you mention, and also read GRRM's own comment on it. Which still looked like an excuse than a proper explanation.

Hidden text.

So Drogo raped Daenerys in s1e1? I haven't seen but I have read a part of the first book. And that's not there.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I think there's a strange assumption that the show writers approve of the actions of the character in question, or did this for shock value.

The way I see it, there are two things at play here:

1. The character has been shown this season as losing grasp (pun intended) on his confidence and manhood because of his disability, and he has been further humiliated by his family and his lover. This is a brutal response to that loss of pride, and however disturbing, it is in character for the show.

2. There's a strong theme in this episode of the very precarious position of women in this society, which strikes me as responsible feminism. This incident was one example, though it's rife throughout the episode, including between Tywin and Cersei, Sam and Gilly, etc. Then there are those women who are overcoming those barriers, such as Dany.

A deeply uncomfortable episode, but not in a gratuitous sense.

[River]

Hidden text.

In the books, Dany's first sexual encounter with Khal Drogo was consensual. A number of her later ones weren't, until she got over the culture shock and asked Doreah for some instructions in how to take a man to hand. So, while the way the show handled it galled me, I figured it was an amalgamation of the initial months of Dany's marriage.

Jaime of the books is a dark character, but he always drew the line at rape and, in the show, he also demonstrated a tendency to draw the same line. So what he did with Cersei is galling and I'm wondering how he's going to react to himself as the season progresses.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Hidden text.

In the books, Dany's first sexual encounter with Khal Drogo was consensual. A number of her later ones weren't, until she got over the culture shock and asked Doreah for some instructions in how to take a man to hand. So, while the way the show handled it galled me, I figured it was an amalgamation of the initial months of Dany's marriage.

Jaime of the books is a dark character, but he always drew the line at rape and, in the show, he also demonstrated a tendency to draw the same line. So what he did with Cersei is galling and I'm wondering how he's going to react to himself as the season progresses.

Hidden text.

No matter what many GOT readers are saying, the description of the scene in the book is rape. Cersei said no to Jaime multiple times, and he continued. It was only then, after she was overpowered, that she "consented." That's rape.

And yes, Jaime of the show had a sense of justice about women being raped by gangs of horny men (eg. Brienne). But this is very different. This is his long-time lover and ssister, Cersei, and in his mind (and in this twisted relationship), he probably does not consider it rape (though it certainly is).

He's also the same man who killed a child and his young cousin...

[Pearly Di]

But unlike with LOTR and TH, the TV series improves upon the source material dramatically, IMO.

I don't doubt that. I don't have much interest in reading GRRM's books since they seem interminable. (I adore historical fiction, so it's not because I don't enjoy quasi-historical fantasy fiction.) I don't care tuppence how much the series deviates from GRRM's canon, so I am content to watch the series whenever I can. I find it very well done, and riveting. I can find the violence a bit shocking, but then, I watched I, Claudius at the age of 14 and that was just as bad, even if the violence was more off-screen ...

GoT is quite consistently good. The acting, the camerawork, the photography, the character development, the production design. It simply feels like a more convincing place than PJ's Middle Earth.

I agree that GoT the series is consistently good on those levels, whereas PJ's LotR is more uneven in tone. In terms of visual world-building, though, PJ's Middle-earth works beautifully on screen. I would never describe it as inferior to the production values of GoT (which I do think are very good).

Tolkien's Middle Earth, on the other hand, blows them all out of the water. There is no fantasy world like it, and there is no fantasy story that reaches its level of truth and beauty.

Agreed.

As much as I like PJ as a person, I don't think he thinks too deeply about Tolkien.

I would agree with that. However:

In other words, PJ degraded Tolkien while Weiss and Benioff upgraded Martin.

'Degraded' is too strong a term. I grant that PJ often simplifies - and sometimes vulgarises - Tolkien. Simplification in a dramatic/visual medium is somewhat inevitable, even if LotR had been directed by a more 'elegant' director, like Peter Weir. The vulgarisation is much less forgivable, and produces an uneven tone, e.g. courtly language going hand in hand with stupid dwarf jokes or, even worse, un-chivalrous behaviour by the good guys, e.g. Movie Faramir allowing his men to beat Gollum up, an appalling breach of conduct that none of Tolkien's good guys would ever permit.

I do think LotR would work well in the GoT medium.

GoT spoiler:

Hidden text.

Joffrey's death was

[Passdagas the Brown]

The ending of episode 4...My goodness. That was the most LOTR-esque moment we've seen so far. Gave me chills, pun intended. A great episode. One of the best across all the seasons, IMO. Michelle McClaren and Brian Cogman are a dream writing-directing team.