Oscar Night- Keeping it real

[solicitr]

We're not talking about shapely here, but anorexic chic. The Venus de Milo wouldn't have a prayer as a runway model today.

[Frelga]

Indeed. Notice how heavy her hips are, how round her arms and shoulders.

Elegance I grant you. Elegance is helped by long, slender lines, although it is chiefly poise and taste. Sex appeal is something else. Hepburn was elegant, but put Marylin next to her and you'll see what I mean.

But really, really the sexiest trait of all is confidence. It comes in many shades from regal to vulgar but the person who will turn your head will usually be the one who thinks they are the head turner.

[Inanna]

Nin, I like thin too. Actually, slim is the word. I mean, have you seen Cameron Diaz's muscles? She's fit.

And Frelga, I totally agree - act like you are head-turnable, and you usually are.

[Nin]

I prefer Audrey over Marilyn any day! And by far... my ideal blond would be Grace Kelly or Marlene Dietrich...

Of today's actresses, I'd maybe say Gwyneth Palthrow - she is slender, not deadly skinny. (As is Sandra Bullock...)

Crossposted with Mahima!

[River]

I'd argue that elegance is as much about how you project yourself as sex appeal is and both can happen for the same body type if that's what the owner of the body wants. Both these women are so iconic it's hard to imagine them any other way, but Hepburn could have been a sex bomb if she or her handlers wanted her to be and Monroe could have been elegant if she or her handlers wanted her to be. But they weren't.

For reasons both personal and professional, I shoot for elegance when occasion requires me to break away from nerdy. I succeed at that because I want to.

[Inanna]

I have tried shooting for elegance a couple of times - unfortunately my clumsiness highly detracts from that look. So, I just go in for "smart" and mildly sexy (at least in my opinion and in my husband's - and thats what matters!).

[River]

I get around that by avoiding heels. And one of the perks of marrying a man an inch shorter than me is I can get away with it.

[solicitr]

It's interesting that it's the women who are all praising skinny.

[Primula Baggins]

Well, it's the (rich) women who buy the clothes that are on the skinny models.

I just mean that if there's a gender-related dichotomy in what female body type is most attractive, most of the marketing is going to make use of the type more women find attractive. Pleasing men just isn't a priority there.

Or on chick lit book covers for books about overweight women.

[Nin]

It's interesting that it's the women who are all praising skinny.

I disagree and one evening out somewhere with my sister or my best friend is the best lesson to learn it. The difference between the looksm the omments, the offered drinks without even asking (we're all married and/or divorced and not looking for a relationship, each of us with two boys... ) in comparison to going out with other friends or on my own are beyond believable. So much about the reaction of men...

[Elentári]

It's interesting that it's the women who are all praising skinny.

I didn't!

It's the old dichotomy of wanting to be the opposite of what we are, and imagining that the grass is greener....I am happy to be slim but wish I had a decent bust to soften the lines and balance my other curves!

I do agree that slim is far preferable to carrying too much weight, but size 0, stick-thin clothes rails are NOT good role models....

[solicitr]

However, Nin, you're talking about BMI of 20-21, which is smack-dab in the middle of normal. Fashion models run as low as 17 or below, which is clinically underweight, in fact an indicator for anorexia.

While most men, I agree, have no use for overhanging bellies and double chins, xylophone ribs and hipbones jutting like a famine steer are equally a turnoff.

Speaking as a perv (or at least one trying to remember what it used to be like all those years ago), the basic male activity (and any straight guy who denies it is lying) of imagine-her-naked-and-in-bed will definitely go with Marilyn over Audrey, who, although lovely and elegant and a fine actress, one imagines would be like sleeping with a sawhorse.

[Inanna]

However, Nin, you're talking about BMI of 20-21, which is smack-dab in the middle of normal. Fashion models run as low as 17 or below, which is clinically underweight, in fact an indicator for anorexia.

I don't recall any women here praising that low a BMI or anything close to anorexic.

Slim does not mean anorexic.

[Nin]

However, Nin, you're talking about BMI of 20-21, which is smack-dab in the middle of normal. Fashion models run as low as 17 or below, which is clinically underweight, in fact an indicator for anorexia.

While most men, I agree, have no use for overhanging bellies and double chins, xylophone ribs and hipbones jutting like a famine steer are equally a turnoff.

Speaking as a perv (or at least one trying to remember what it used to be like all those years ago), the basic male activity (and any straight guy who denies it is lying) of imagine-her-naked-and-in-bed will definitely go with Marilyn over Audrey, who, although lovely and elegant and a fine actress, one imagines would be like sleeping with a sawhorse.

I am also talking about women and not about girls what most of the fashion models are. But if I calculate my BMI with my weight of the age 17, I was at barely 18... it's just a question of age, often. And sorry, I am more the Marilyn type (speaking of hair colour and curves) and I am working in a school with lots of very, very attractive girls and what I see is different: slim girls (and women) are looked at, admired etc much more from both sides, men and women. I know it is often said, I just don't believe it.

[Túrin Turambar]

There are factors that effect attractiveness beyond BMI, though. Face, personality, etc. And for teenaged girls, a lot of it depends on how outgoing they are, which comes down in a large part to confidence.

And in my annecdotal experience, while there were very thin girls at my high school who were widely considered attractive, there were ones of more average weight as well. Face and interests (ie. who they hung out with) seemed just as important as body.

[Padme]

The one thing I was thinking about was the world population, the actual breeding standards of humans. The biggest populations in the world are not over populated with run way models. They are shorter, yes thin but not by choice women, and the most desirable women in those place are the ones with a bit of meat on the bones, it means they have some money.

[solicitr]

and the most desirable women in those place are the ones with a bit of meat on the bones, it means they have some money.

Absolutely.

The change in the West in the 'ideal' female type has shifted dramatically over the last century or so for precisely that reason: plump and pale was admired, because it indicated a woman who had plenty to eat and a life of leisure. Lean and sunbrowned was what peasant women looked like.

In the 20th century that inverted completely: lean and sunbrowned suggested sufficient leisure time and money for sunbathing and athletics.

[Túrin Turambar]

Although I would question whether being overweight has ever been considered particularly attractive recently in the west. Certainly Jane Austen notes that Elizabeth Bennet's figure is 'light and pleasing'. It's almost certain that extreme thinness was shunned as a sign of poverty and malnutrition, but people in general would have been slimmer than they are today, and attractive women still slim. Average weight by the standards of the times, but still slim by today’s standards.

It’s true, though, that the trend to extreme thinness in models is fairly recent – over the last few decades. But there seems to have been a trend towards extremes in beauty in general, as I’ve argued before about male body image.

[solicitr]

Although I would question whether being overweight has ever been considered particularly attractive

One word: Rubenesque.

And one picture:

[vison]

Rubens' women tended to be a bit chunkier than The Naked Maja - that lovely lady is not "fat" - she is pleasantly rounded. You can't count her ribs, and her hipbones don't protude. But I suspect that what makes her sexy - and she is sexy - is that little smile.

Marilyn Monroe was heavier as a young woman than in her thirties - she was thinned down and had some work done on her face. Her more-or-less "real looking" blonde hair was bleached into white candy fluff. She was turned into a plastic woman. There wasn't much left for her to do but die.

Still, her famous nude calendar pose is as lovely as ever.