Avatar

[Pearly Di]

Don't get me wrong, the film deserves its money. They spent a ton to make something like no one has made before, and they deserve to get their investment back and then some.

Oh, I have no problem with Avatar's success. I like the film, it's good fun. And Cameron just took cinema to another level, so good on him.

It just doesn't deserve Best Picture.

And yes, Titanic wasn't much for a script, I agree. However, I would say its success was less in the special effects area, and more in the characters themselves.

Cameron was able to get the suits to finance his film because he sold it to them as 'Romeo and Juliet on board the Titanic' which is admittedly a winning premise. That's the film's appeal, plus people are very fascinated by the tragedy anyway. Kate Winslet's Rose is both beautiful and engaging: for me she was the only credible character in the entire film, with some solid backup from Kathy Bates as Mrs Brown and the guy who played the Irish shipwright, can't remember his name. (But he was on Nurse Jackie last night on BBC2. )

Oh, and the courageous little orchestra which kept playing as the ship went down. Based on fact, and They were great.

[solicitr]

Werner Herzog's take:

Overcoming gravity, in your films that also means destroying the barriers between fact and fiction. You have often used spoken of ecstatic truth.

That is nothing but a bare concept. But in both feature and documentary films it is possible to have moments when you turn your back on the purely factual. Because fact does not constitute truth per se. Generally facts have nothing lighting them up inside. I always say that truth, a certain deeper layer of truth, can only be reached by stylisation and staging and invention.

Is the ecstatic truth actually a religious term?

Yes, there is something of that there, something of late medieval mysticism. But I want to get away from the religious, from the mystical, because it leads all too quickly to the cloudy waters of the New Age, which is the most horrific thing you can possibly imagine in the spiritual realm. And this is something you see in a film like "Avatar" by the way.

It's basically a New Age fairytale film.

What annoys me is the way the film romanticises and idolises nature. It's celebrating a new form of paganism and it gives me knots in my intestines just thinking about it.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1993.html

[vison]

"It's celebrating a new form of paganism and it gives me knots in my intestines just thinking about it. "

Suck it up, buttercup.

There is nothing more likely to give me knots in my personal intestines than the self-centred whining arrogance of people like the lamentable Mr. Herzog.

I do understand - I will quickly interject this into my own post - that there are people (perhaps even among us here) who believe that one form of religious belief is "true" or "truer than all others", but I am one for whom they are all equally false and I think further than all this angst and weeping and breastbeating about this very entertaining movie is just plain silly.

[solicitr]

To associate Werner Herzog, of all people, with "self-centered whining arrogance" does not reflect well on any who could form or hold such an opinion.

Herzog's enemies- then it fits.

I think further than all this angst and weeping and breastbeating about this very entertaining movie is just plain silly

Why dodn't you terll trhat to the rioters who routinely turn up every time a film prof screens "Birth of a Nation?" After all, it's just a very entertaining movie, and complaining about it is just silly.

[vison]

To associate Werner Herzog, of all people, with "self-centered whining arrogance" does not reflect well on any who could form or hold such an opinion.

Herzog's enemies- then it fits.

I think further than all this angst and weeping and breastbeating about this very entertaining movie is just plain silly

Why dodn't you terll trhat to the rioters who routinely turn up every time a film prof screens "Birth of a Nation?" After all, it's just a very entertaining movie, and complaining about it is just silly.

I wonder if you realize that you, singlehandedly, have kept this movie going? Your posts on the subject must number in the millions by now. Remember: there's no such thing as bad publicity.


I can think Herzog is a whining and arrogant jerk if I want. I'm actually kinder to him than you are to James Cameron. I don't think Herzog is out to destroy modern civilization.

I will say that if people are rioting when "Avatar" is screeened by film professors in 75 or 100 years, I will admit you might have been on to something.

But chances are that in the future world, where all is peaceful and everyone lives in the trees and hugs 5 times a day and eats a total vegan diet and cars are outlawed and old people are shoved onto rafts and sent to sea to die under the skies and old recruiting posters for the US military are used as dartboards, Mr. Cameron is, like, God.

[solicitr]

I'm looking forward to the day when floor-length blue Na'avi-fur coats are all the fashion rage, meself.

But chances are that in the future world, where all is peaceful and everyone lives in the trees and hugs 5 times a day and eats a total vegan diet and cars are outlawed and old people are shoved onto rafts and sent to sea to die under the skies and old recruiting posters for the US military are used as dartboards

Christ, you really are a pessimist! I still have hope we can avoid such a dreadful fate.

[vison]

I'm looking forward to the day when floor-length blue Na'avi-fur coats are all the fashion rage, meself.

Like the tobacco pouches that men used to make from the breasts of native women? That sort of thing?

The future I dread, myself, is the future like the past - where ideas of that sort were common, and socially acceptable.

[solicitr]

Like the tobacco pouches that men used to make from the breasts of native women? That sort of thing?

Well, no. More like beaver hats, actually. With this difference, of course- beavers actually exist; they're non-fictional.

My, don't you think all this angst and weeping and breastbeating about this very imaginary species is just plain silly?

Methinks the privilege of taking this piece of 'entertainment' and its heavyhanded message seriously apparently depends on which side one's bread is buttered.

[Pearly Di]

To associate Werner Herzog, of all people, with "self-centered whining arrogance" does not reflect well on any who could form or hold such an opinion.

Why? (Seriously, enlighten me: I've never watched any of his films. I would like to see Grizzly Man but never got round to it.)

He sounds rather self-important in that article, but then a lot of artists do.

I also notice that in that article Herzog describes the Spanish Inquisition as a 'catastrophe'. Good man. No doubt he would have the same opinion of the Crusades.

I think that comparing modern psychology to the Spanish Inquisition is taking things a bit far though. Although he might have a point.

Herzog's enemies- then it fits.

Herzog's enemies, according to that article, would also seem to include the Catholic forces who suppressed the Muslim element in Spain and those who are against gay rights.

I'm just ... saying. (I know nothing about the man and his personal beliefs, religious or otherwise.)

Methinks the privilege of taking this piece of 'entertainment' and its heavyhanded message seriously apparently depends on which side one's bread is buttered.

Personally, I don't know anyone who takes Avatar seriously.


The story is unoriginal but well executed, at least visually.

Of course I knew the big bad colonel would die. That character had it practically stamped across his forehead.

[solicitr]

Herzog's enemies are or have been the members of the doctrinaire left, who have abused, spat on, kicked and shot the man for his politics... or rather his non-politics. Herzog's refusal to inject political messages into his movies outraged the thoroughly activist-leftist German film community.

But then a film like Aguirre would be far, far less than it is if Herzog had gone for the easy and obvious 'message' rather than inviting the viewers to draw their own conclusions.

I don't know what Herzog's knowledge of history is, but if he is as well-read and sensible* as he appears to be, then I doubt he'd make the fundamental error of lumping the Inquisition and the Crusades together. His likening of political correctness and speech codes to the Inquisition is however not unreasonable.

*In some respects. As a director, especially on remote locations, he can do a reasonable impression of nuts.

[Primula Baggins]

Saw it finally, in one of its last days locally in 3D, and was glad I did. Visually amazing. As others have said, the 3D served the film rather than the other way around. I completely stopped thinking about the Navi being CG; they looked physically real. I liked (and Mr. Prim, a biologist, also liked) the detail in the plants and animals.

Though how the USB cables evolved was well beyond both of us (and I can't even guess how they explained the floating mountains).

The lead performances were good; the love story was well played and I enjoyed it.

The story creaked a bit; it is an old story, after all. I could see every turn in it coming. I had fun, but it's also fun to be surprised, even in light entertainment.

And the villains were cartoonish. Any story is going to be a much better story if the antagonist has non-evil reasons for what he's trying to achieve—reasons that he believes make his actions right and necessary or even noble. They're not even hard to come up with if you're already dealing in familiar tropes: suppose the unobtainium was needed to save humans on Earth from suffering and death, not just to improve a corporate bottom line?

But then there wouldn't be such a clear and simple line to draw, I guess. Humans would still have no right to kill the Navi to get the unobtainium; but a human wouldn't have to be a villain or utterly venal to believe he was doing the right thing, a terrible duty.

I keep going back to the images, though. Gorgeous. I'd love to see a sequel with a story that didn't involve blowing lots of stuff up; a story about the people and the world.

[Pearly Di]

And the villains were cartoonish. Any story is going to be a much better story if the antagonist has non-evil reasons for what he's trying to achieve—reasons that he believes make his actions right and necessary or even noble. They're not even hard to come up with if you're already dealing in familiar tropes: suppose the unobtainium was needed to save humans on Earth from suffering and death, not just to improve a corporate bottom line?

But then there wouldn't be such a clear and simple line to draw, I guess. Humans would still have no right to kill the Navi to get the unobtainium; but a human wouldn't have to be a villain or utterly venal to believe he was doing the right thing, a terrible duty.

Exactly so, Prim.

That complexity and nuance is what makes Saruman such an interesting bad guy, for starters.

And my favourite bad guy of all time: Babylon 5's Bester. (Mr Morden was pretty good too.)

There is an interesting moment in Cameron's Aliens when Ripley accuses the treacherous Burke of being worse than the Xenomorphs (who are, of course, the most fearsome enemies imaginable). "I don't know which species is worse," she says, in weary disgust. "At least you don't see them ****ing each other over for a piece of the percentage."

But Avatar's villains aren't even as well drawn as Burke (who of course gets his grisly comeuppance, and it's much more horrifying than testosterone-fuelled Colonel Quaritch's!)

I keep going back to the images, though. Gorgeous. I'd love to see a sequel with a story that didn't involve blowing lots of stuff up; a story about the people and the world.

I'm not too hopeful about the sequel storyline, myself. I anticipate more Really Bad and Greedy Humans, yawn.

But, yes, I thoroughly enjoyed visiting Pandora for a couple of hours on screen.

[Aravar]

On a bit of a tangent there was an interesting Horizon documentary on the BBc las night about food, the invention of cooking and the effect on human society. Part of the documentary showed some bushmen hunting a porcupine, and at one point a wizened hunter said something along the lines of "I don't care much for porcupine, but meat is meat." That attitude seemed a long way from that of the idealised Na'vi.

[Alatar]

I don't have much to add, but I just like the idea of Alatar and Aravar discussing Avatar.

[Aravar]

[Alatar]

Incidentally, you may have got a missed call from an unknown number a few weeks back! I was in Manchester picking up a car and had a few hours to kill. Didn't see any point in leaving a message though.

[Aravar]

That's a shame. I'm notorious with my mobile.

[Frelga]

Prim, if the humans were not acting out of sheer greed, they may have approached Na'vi differently and perhaps the blue guys would have shared. Or not. Cameron wasn't striving for complexity, that's for sure. But Quaritch is clearly driven by his hate for the alien world itself, which scarred him so badly on arrival, and his need to protect the humans whom he sees as "his own." And that's as deep as I can scratch it, with this movie.

In vaguely related news, I read "Hurt Locker" (or just th director?) was disqualified from Oscars for emails urging to vote "against $500 million ovie"), which is prohibited under the rules.

EDIT: Never mind, confused Frelga is confused, sorry!

[Primula Baggins]

Frelga, you scared me! I hate to see good films get into trouble.

No, the film wasn't disqualified from any awards, and the director is fine. The producer who sent the emails has been barred from attending the ceremony itself, but if Hurt Locker wins Best Picture, he'll still get an Oscar.

‘Hurt Locker’ Producer is Barred From Oscar Ceremony

It shouldn't affect HL's chances for awards, because the whole thing didn't come out until near the end of the last day ballots could be returned.

[Frelga]

Oh, I see, I completely misunderstood. I think the headline I saw said "Barred from Oscar Awards," and I did not read the article carefully. So sorry for the false alarm, Prim!

I am not much of a movie person, and when I watch something, it's usually fun fluff like Avatar. So, Oscars are only of a peripheral interest to me. Until the Hobbit, I suppose.