Just as many notes as necessary

[truehobbit]

Wow, awesome posts!

Jny, you have a lot more knowledge of harmony than I do - and in English I'm completely hopeless at it - I'll figure out what you meant at the piano tomorrow!

I think that these harmonies are wired into our brain somehow, because you can get pretty much the same response to a particular chordal progression from every listener.

I sometimes wonder whether that is because we have grown up in this harmonic system, and if people from a different background would respond similarly.
Many years ago I saw a documentary about how the Japanese were first confronted with Beethoven and how instantly they loved it. I don't know if they really had had no previous contact with Western music, but if so, it would be amazing, as the Asian pentatonic system, though not wholly alien to our tonal system, is still quite different. (I don't know much about Japanese music, just that Chinese music is extremely different from ours.)

sam - you put in words exactly what I feel, and what I always find so hard to explain!
And, yes, Figaro has several of these moments!

that kind of *scrunch up in ecstasy* response - it's definitely physical,

YES!

Sassy - where does your quote come from?

Yes, in Mozart's time all the keys were attributed a particular expression.
I remember that F-major is rural and C-major of course triumphant.
One of the minor ones is for death - not sure if it's g or d minor.

I'll try to look it up!

[Primula Baggins]

Jn, I remember from orchestra that B-flat is an "easy" key for woodwind fingering. (And a hard one for strings!) Maybe that's the real reason!

[Jnyusa]

Prim: Ah! That may well be it.

Yes, I've never really tried to write for woodwinds or brass but I've written a few string background arrangements for local pop artists, and the fingering does impose some serious limitations, especially when the vocals have already been laid down and the key is set. Not all intervals are available for use, if you care whether or not the studio musicians end up hating your guts.

Hobby: Many years ago I saw a documentary about how the Japanese were first confronted with Beethoven and how instantly they loved it .... the Asian pentatonic system, though not wholly alien to our tonal system, is still quite different.

Debussy based his most famous works on Balinese bell music, which is pentatonic, and I think that Westerners find this wonderfully exotic. I love it, personally, both Debussy and the Asian tonal scale.

But I do notice that music which makes use of quarter tones is very difficult for Westerners to get used to. The ear has to be trained to hear the quarter tone, otherwise the music just sounds out-of-key.

I think it depends very much on the artist you are listening to when you hear this kind of music for the first time. Pure quarter tones are very difficult to achieve and a lot of the Asian and Mideastern pop music probably is being performed out of tune.

I learned to really love Arabic music at a fairly young age, but I learned it listening to premier artists. When I try to play my tapes for friends they ... complain.

Indian music, by contrast, always turned me off -- the vocal music, that is. But I was listening to the Indian music hour on an NPR station a few years ago and the dj played this female artist whose quarter tones were so pure, I felt like I was hearing Indian music for the first time in my life, and really loving it. And then it sort of came together for me - it wasn't the Indian music that I disliked, it was the singers I'd heard previously that I disliked!

String players do have to be able to hear partial tones. An F-sharp is not supposed to vibrate at the same frequency as a G-flat the way it does on a piano.

Jn

[Sassafras]

Indian music, by contrast, always turned me off -- the vocal music, that is. But I was listening to the Indian music hour on an NPR station a few years ago and the dj played this female artist whose quarter tones were so pure, I felt like I was hearing Indian music for the first time in my life, and really loving it

Do you mean Raga, Jn.?

Played (or sung) by a master it is the most sublime music in the world.
On a level with Bach or any great classical composer, in my estimation.

I was enthralled long ago, with Ustad Ali Akbar Khan (sarod) and his wife, Radjulari (sp?) Khan, vocalist and tamboura player. Ravi Shankar, too ... although I prefer the sarod to the sitar and I think Ustad Khan was the greater musical genuis.

[Jnyusa]

Sass, can ragas be vocal?

I do love sitar + tabla music, and have a collection of sitar ragas, but know really nothing about the other instruments or musical categories of Indian music. No idea what I was listening to that morning, but it was sublime!

What is the sarod and how is it different from a sitar?

Jn

[Rowanberry]

Somehow, I've always found Mozart a bit overhyped. :| Sure, the man was a genius of his art, and composed great pieces of music - but, are they actually any more brilliant than the works of most other great composers?

Actually, I think that quite a part of his fame comes from that he was such a colourful person, compared to many of the other old masters.

Of classical music, I've always been more into the Baroque masters, the Russian composers (I remember dancing in my room to Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #2 as a preschool kid ), and names like Beethoven, Smetana, and of course the "obligatory" Sibelius. As for simple but brilliant, think of Erik Satie's piano pieces...

In the end, I guess it all boils down to personal taste.

[Erunáme]

Lots to respond to in this thread. I hope to get to it at some point.

About the key of Bb, Prim is right. That's the key that's easiest for the wind instruments in general, most especially the brass instruments. Generally bands (as in wind instruments) do better with flat keys. I know I prefer them being a trumpet player.

Orchestra was always a bit of a challenge for the wind players because strings like to play in sharp keys, especially D Major and G Major (C Major isn't too bad). The notes fall in easy finger patterns unlike the flat keys. When transposition comes into play, this means the wind instruments have to play several sharps since most wind instruments are not in the key of C. Really it shouldn't be that difficult to read four to five sharps, but for some reason it was a bit and took a little while to get used to...and deal with the different tuning issues.

I've not totally understood how certain keys had certain feelings. I'm not sure I've really been able to hear it. Obviously there is a big difference between major and minor, but I'm not sure I can hear a difference between G major and D flat major. I've not really tried.

[JewelSong]

Somehow, I've always found Mozart a bit overhyped. Neutral Sure, the man was a genius of his art, and composed great pieces of music - but, are they actually any more brilliant than the works of most other great composers?

In a word....yes. At least, in my "exalted" opinion!

Mozart's music is at the pinnacle of Classical Form. (The other composers you mention are not of the Classical period - Baroque, of course, is Baroque and the Russians are more in the Romantic period. Beethoven was almost his own period - although he did meet Mozart once.) Classical music was designed to be almost purposefully boring - it was played in the background many times. People got used to very predictable notes, scales, keys, formulas. Then Mozart came along and was somehow able to make this same, predictable music exciting, different, unexpected and moving - all while staying within the proscribed Classical form. This was...unheard of. And it got Mozart into a lot of trouble, although his "colorfulness" was much exaggerated in the film. But he changed the way people though about music forever.

The other thing about Mozart was his perfection. It's as if he never wrote a wrong note. That story about him never making rough drafts? True. He just wrote down what he had already written in his head. "Dictation from God" they called it later. His music was, and is, unique. There has been no one like him since - although of course people have their personal tastes and of course there are many other great composers!

I've not totally understood how certain keys had certain feelings. I'm not sure I've really been able to hear it. Obviously there is a big difference between major and minor, but I'm not sure I can hear a difference between G major and D flat major. I've not really tried.

It's funny - I don't have perfect pitch by any means, but if I am singing a piece more than a step off from the printed music, I have trouble "hearing it" correctly. In other words, if the piece is written in D major, but we are sounding it in F major, it "feels" funny to me when I try to read it.

D major is supposed to be the "brightest" key.

[Erunáme]

It's funny - I don't have perfect pitch by any means, but if I am singing a piece more than a step off from the printed music, I have trouble "hearing it" correctly. In other words, if the piece is written in D major, but we are sounding it in F major, it "feels" funny to me when I try to read it.

That's interesting. I can say I really don't have that problem. A lot of the time when I'm wanting to sing "May It Be" or "Into the West" I transpose it up a few notes so the song is in a comfortable range for me. It might take a few moments to get it right, but it comes pretty easy to me.

Perhaps it's because I've dealt with numerous instruments that are in different keys? I don't have perfect pitch, but I can get pretty darn close to a concert F without hearing it beforehand. Though I noticed once I moved away from trumpet for a while and dealt strictly with strings, my pitch was a step off for a while. It was odd.

.
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I really need to start discussing Mozart! I'm one who finds him overhyped though.

[JewelSong]

I really need to start discussing Mozart! I'm one who finds him overhyped though.

You play trumpet, right? Did you know Mozart hated the trumpet and when he was little, he would run out of the room, holding his ears when one was played? In all his music, I think there is ONE trumpet piece.

Maybe that's why you find him over-hyped!

[Sassafras]

Sass, can ragas be vocal?

Yes, although they are most often instrumental.

What is the sarod and how is it different from a sitar?

The sarod is an Indian classical musical instrument which probably originates from the Senya rebab, an Indio-Persian instrument played in India to the 19th century. It is a 25-stringed lute-like instrument, whose body is hand carved from a single block of tun (Indian Mahogany) or teak wood, with a steel fretless finger board. The bridge rests on the belly of the instrument which is covered in goat skin. It is played with a plectrum or jaba made of coconut. Four of the strings are melody or playing strings, three are rhythm strings, and the rest are sympathetic and jawari strings, all made of metal.

The lack of frets makes it technically demanding to play, as the strings must be pressed hard against the finger-board with the edge of the finger-nail. A certain strength and stiffness of the finger-nails is thus a prerequisite for accuracy of pitch.

As you can see the sarod is also a stringed instrument like the sitar, but there the resemblence ends although both are plucked ... a sitar has movable frets, 7 metal playing strings and 13 resonating strings below .... but the sound it produces is completely different. Difficult to describe but for me, the sarod has a pure tone, almost plaintive, full of longing, and in the hands of a master like Ustad Khan causes an emotional response bordering on extacy.

As for Raga ... it is improvised within a strict framework. The best exponents not only excel in technical expertise but also creative genius ..
.

A traditional melodic type in Hindu music, consisting of a theme that expresses an aspect of religious feeling and sets forth a tonal system on which variations are improvised within a prescribed framework of typical progressions, melodic formulas, and rhythmic patterns.

Search out an Ali Akbar Khan recording (Rag Chandranandan or Bhairavi for examples of classical Hindustani music) I promise you will be transported!

And I don't make promises lightly!

[Jnyusa]

Thank you, Sass!

The sarod looks exceedingly difficult to play.

Jn

[Erunáme]

You play trumpet, right? Did you know Mozart hated the trumpet and when he was little, he would run out of the room, holding his ears when one was played? In all his music, I think there is ONE trumpet piece.

Maybe that's why you find him over-hyped!

No, I don't need a composer to write trumpet pieces for me to find him or her interesting. I find most of his music sterile and emotionless...notice I said most. There are some exceptions like the Lacrimosa from his Requiem.

I do realize you were teasing though.

[truehobbit]

Jny and Sassy - interesting thoughts!
So, from what you say, I'm beginning to think it's quite normal for someone to be thrilled with a music that's completely alien to them, whether it's Asians hearing European music or Europeans hearing Asian music for the first time.

As to the hype about Mozart, I think it's this very hype that gives him such a bad rep with some people.
I mean, once you've been turned into a marzipan chocolate, it must be hard to have people take you seriously!

From all the various criticsm I have heard (this is not in response to people here particularly - it's quite a common view, I find) I think Mozart has the problem (or, well, it's not his problem, but that of the recipients) that he is so extremely famous, and particularly so extremely famous in a positive way.
Bach has the good fortune to have been forgotten for a hundred years, so we are still making up for that oversight by feeling bound to reverence. Also, on hearing some of his music, people will feel it's above their heads, and hence revere him for that reason, too.
Beethoven may be extremely famous, too, but then he's mysterious and scary in his personality, and that understandably turns people on. His music often also is scary, dark and violent, and that is something people respond to with reverence, as well.
When you are universally popular and make people feel good about themselves, though... what's a well-trained critic to say but that you are shallow and infantile?


Back to the subject a bit more - so, no one here knows the Bergman movie? Yikes!
Ok, what about Joseph Losey's Don Giovanni? Anyone seen that? If so, what do you think?

(Generally speaking, I think it's fascinating that directors like Bergman and Losey had the desire to film a Mozart-opera.)

[JewelSong]

As to the hype about Mozart, I think it's this very hype that gives him such a bad rep with some people.
I mean, once you've been turned into a marzipan chocolate, it must be hard to have people take you seriously! Wink

That's probably why the poster for the 2006 Viennese Festival shows him like this:


SALZBURG, Austria --Roll over, Beethoven. Beat it, Brahms. Mozart is back with a vengeance, though he'd probably flip his powdered wig if he could see the fuss being made over his 250th birthday. As Austria and the world gear up for a jubilee year of concerts and celebrations marking the maestro's birth, his hometown of Salzburg is on the verge of becoming Schmaltzburg

You can read the whole article here:
http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles ... hday_bash/

One thing about Mozart's music - almost everyone knows something he wrote - even if it's only the first few notes of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik " on a cell phone ring tone!

Eru, I think his music is far from sterile! But it IS in classical form...which does not have the emotional dynamics and huge crescendos of the later, Romantic composers. Do you tend to not like Classical music in general? (Handel, for instance? or Salieri? )

[Jnyusa]

Don Giovanni was the first live opera I ever saw!

I don't think I've ever seen a movie of an opera, except for TV airings of live performances. Sorry, Hobby.

But I'm going to go over the imdb and read up on these a bit.


Jn

[JewelSong]

Nothing like live opera, Jny.

Opera, though, is something in which there is no middle ground.

Good opera is wonderful, spectacular, breathtakingly wonderful. There's nothing like it.

Bad opera is...well, really, really, really bad.

And a bad production of a good opera is enough to put you off forever. (Remembers a terrible production of "Carmen" my son and I once saw. We still reminisce with horror - and it was almost 10 years ago!)

[truehobbit]

ROFL at that poster, Jewel!

Although, you know, I think he'd enjoy it!

And in spite of all the nonsense that gets produced for such events, there's also bound to be some quality stuff!

Don Giovanni was the first live opera I ever saw!

Cool, Jny! Where was that and when? What did you think of it?

TV airings of live performances are great!

I just thought it was particularly interesting when a director who's known for what I suppose you could call "artsy" movies films a Mozart opera. I think both movies are somewhat different from the directors' usual style, too.
I wonder if the movies maybe aren't so well known even among cinema-lovers?

LOL, Jewel - I don't know, maybe I haven't seen really bad opera, but I think it's no more a big deal than a bad theatre-performance - or any bad art - to me.
Though there are atrocities! Usually from directors with "ideas"!

[Jnyusa]

jewel: Bad opera, oh yes!

I walked out on a performance of La Traviata once (Philadelphia opera season), and found out later that some of my friends had done the same thing on a different night. The soprano and tenor were BOTH out of tune. It was teeth-grinding to listen to them.

Hobby, I saw Don Giovanna in a small town in Ohio, performed by a travelling company. We were treated one opera per year, lol, and always something 'easy.' I guess there just wasn't a market for more than that.

It was quite a good performance (everyone sang beautifully) though the stage was really too small for opera. Don Giovanni's descent into hell was imaginative, given the limitations of the set.

Jn

[samaranth]

The first live opera I ever saw was - not suprisingly - The Marriage of Figaro. To be honest, opera is not my favourite musical form, and apart from Mozart's operas, and also Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, I'd probably elect to spend my concert pennies elsewhere.

But Figaro was brilliant live.

It’s true that Mozart just wrote things down straight out of his head. I’ve seen pictures of Beethoven’s scores, all scratched over and crossed out. Debussy considered that no composition of his was ever finished…even though they were published, he felt free to continue revising them. But Mozart wrote straight to the page. Years ago we visited Vienna and stayed in a tiny Pension in Schulerstrasse, off Stephansplatz. The house next door to us actually opened on Domgasse (the street running parallel to ours), and in that building was the apartment where Mozart lived between 1784 and 1787. It was titled the Figarohaus, for self-evident reasons. It is only a tiny place – just a couple of rooms – and some of the space was taken up with displays of documents: letters, manuscripts, and so on. And the manuscripts were like clean copies. Remarkable.


This might be a handy site to bookmark – the BBC will be marking this anniversary year, with many Mozart broadcasts scheduled over the next few weeks.